INTRODUCTION:
After living in large cities, I wanted to come back to the Hudson Valley where I grew up. Unfortunately, even after many years, I have found that this area still has a largely unseen queer presence. Without the support of a needed community, and further isolation due to the ongoing health, social and political crises, I was compelled to explore new relationships with the environments I experienced when I was younger. Returning to these familiar places years later with a different body, I focus on getting to know the unknown self. I capture vulnerable moments in surroundings that have never seen me in this way before.
I explore themes of identity,
presentation, and (in)visibility through the lens of a medically transitioning
person. My current Polaroid project serves as a documentation of surgeries
undergone from 2019 to present. This chosen medium is a stark diversion from
the popular “before and after” transition pictures seen online; consumed and
sometimes fetishized on the internet. I strive to show the transitioning body
in kinship with nature, stressing the integral likenesses between the two that
are so often questioned.
INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to):
· An In-depth Discussion With a Female To Male Trans Individual
· Why A New Environment May Be In Order
· Why Transitioning Is Different For Each Individual
· Top Surgery & Bottom Surgery
· Some Of The Emotions Transgender People Deal With
· Why Access To Healthcare Is Crucial
· The Medical Process Of Going Female To Male
· The Importance Of Community During Transition
· The Importance Of Mental Health Professionals During Transition
· We Weigh In On The Impact Of Roe Vs. Wade Being Overturned
CONNECT WITH INNIS:
Website: https://www.inniswolf.com/
Instagram: www.instagram.com/inniswolf
Email: Innis@inniswolf.com
INNIS’ RECOMMENDATIONS:
ACLU: https://www.aclu.org
Disclosure Documentary: https://www.disclosurethemovie.com
CONNECT WITH DE’VANNON:
Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.com
YouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCM
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopix
Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannon
Email: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com
DE’VANNON’S RECOMMENDATIONS:
· Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)
o https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370
o TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs
· Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)
· Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levin
o https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com
· Upwork: https://www.upwork.com
· FreeUp: https://freeup.net
VETERAN’S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS
· Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org
· American Legion: https://www.legion.org
INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?:
· PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.
https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon
TRANSCRIPT:
[00:00:00]
You’re listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De’Vannon and I’ll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what’s really going on in your life.
There is nothing off the table and we’ve got a lot to talk about. So let’s dive right into this episode.
De’Vannon: I am soda. I’m glad because I have searched all the nine fucking damn realms to find me a trans person who would be willing and transparent to come on my show and talk about their journey. And I finally did it hallelujah Tonle and praise. And so his name is in its Wolf. He has transitioned from female to male.
and in this show, we’re gonna get an in-depth discussion, but what that [00:01:00] journey
looks like.
We’re gonna talk about why transitioning is different for each individual. We’re gonna go over details about top surgery and bottom surgery.
We’re gonna talk about the importance of community during transition, and then we’re gonna weigh in on the impact of this very recent row versus Wade . Bullshit.
So please take a listen to this episode and I hope you feel the heartfelt love. Reverberating from this conversation.
I would like to welcome everyone to our final pride episode of the season. Oh, you know what fuck that this is, this is a very pride, specific episode, but it show not be the last for this year because I have decided that pride is oppos to be every God day. And so fuck it. This is just, you know, a great one that we’re about to do here, but [00:02:00] all year long pride Viva resist I’m today.
How are you doing
Innis: are you? Devana
De’Vannon: I’m fan fucking and. So great to be hosting my own show where I can cuss all the fuck. I want to, I go on other people’s shows. And a lot of times they’re not as X-rated as I am. And I, and I curtail my behavior because I’m a flexible bitch, but it’s always good to just get back home where I can say, what the fuck I want.
So I’m so, so it’s,
Innis: it.
De’Vannon: ahead. Were you gonna say something
Innis: I I appreciate it cuz I was thinking about it the other day and I was like, shit, I, I curse a lot, but I’m glad that I’m on the right platform here. I don’t have to worry about it.
De’Vannon: hell to the no, because it’s how people talk, you know, and even people who try to be all cute and shit, when they’re out in public, when they get home, they say everything they say the most, [00:03:00] so. All right. So what’s the point, right? So what’s the point of this show today? It is in is Wolf. It’s a. Person who identifies as transsexual, who I’ve been able to find to be comfortable enough to come on my show and have a discussion about the journey that you know, this, this, this transformation has been.
And so uh, in light of all the, the ire and the, the hates that’s directed toward the two S L G BT Q I a community, and particularly trans people, the trans athletes, all of that, this is a really big deal. And it’s a hot topic right now. Give us a brief breakdown of your history and anything you wanna say about yourself to include your pronouns.
Innis: My pronouns, are he him or they it’s totally fine. I live in the Hudson valley of New York. I grew up here. I’m actually living in my hometown right now, which [00:04:00] is kind of weird. I’m 34 and married, and really I’ve been transitioning physically, mentally really been on that serious path probably for the past 12 years or so.
I’ve definitely been aware that there was something going on, but up until that point, did I really start seriously exploring it and also having the language to really express what was going on with me and also having community around me to help support me, figure that out. So that’s kind of been where I’m at now and, you know, living in my hometown after.
Being here for 30, some odd years is really strange and I’ve left and come back a whole bunch of times and essentially kind of almost been a completely different person every single time. So that’s been [00:05:00] a really interesting experience especially being here now and being married and kind of being under the radar of every single other person, which is a very empowering, but also very strange experience.
De’Vannon: Yeah, cause , so what you’re saying is you would leave and do a few changes and then come back home. And you know, people, especially from our hometown town, like to talk so much fucking goddamn shit. So like here in the south, when I was in the military, whenever I would come back, if I’ve gained weight or lost weight, they always wanna say something, Ooh, you done picked up or, Ooh, you done dropped off.
It’s gotten to the point now that I’ve told ’em all to shut the fuck up. I don’t need their goddamn commentary on my weight. Every time I come and fucking go shit. So I can imagine if you’re turning from a girl into a boy, as critical as people like to be of people. The shit people must have said [00:06:00] to you tell me, can you, what?
Yeah. Speak on that.
Innis: so it’s so strange. Like, you know, my dad is a really popular person here and he has all of these friends who are his age, who were also like my softball coach, someone that I grew up with, you know, my friends’ parents and to not see them for five years or even a year at this point, I just surprised the hell out of them.
And they don’t know what to say. And there’s all these, you know, 60, some odd year old dudes who just turn around. They’re just like, oh Hi, and , I just, like, I can tell that they’re so fucking uncomfortable and they don’t know what to say, because they’re probably seeing me as, you know, like a seven year old girl playing T-ball or something.
And then they turn around and I have a fucking mustache and, you know, muscles, and they’re just like they just have no [00:07:00] idea how to handle themselves. So it’s, it’s very weird. And it’s also, I see a lot of people from high school, a lot of people that I went to school, you know, I graduated with a lot of people and it’s, it’s the same thing.
People get surprised, they get excited. They’re just like, wow, you look so good. Or people just have no idea how to handle themselves. And also people have no idea who I am too. That’s a thing. If I haven’t seen someone for 10 years, I have to kind of almost make up these stories about where I came from. If I grew up here, when I graduated, cuz people would be like, oh, that was, that was my grade.
And then I I’m forced to decide if I wanna out myself or not, or if I just wanna kind of make up a whole other life and see if they catch on or not. It’s always a really weird place to be in
De’Vannon: some secret agent shit though. it’s kinda like you kinda like, okay. You’re giving me some [00:08:00] Evelyn salt right now. so may I, may I ask what your name was when you were a girl?
Innis: I prefer not to talk about it mostly just because it’s, it’s just kind of a strange thing. It’s a strange thing to think that I had a. Different name that people could kind of relate to me with. And I feel like at that point, having the name that I have now, I align so well with that. And not that I feel like I was a different person, but people will relate certain characteristics or, or things about me at that time with that name.
So I kind of just try and just keep that out of, you know, any conversation, cause it’s just way more comfortable.
De’Vannon: no problem at all. So, so you said you were transitioning for 12 years, [00:09:00] so I. At what point do you feel like it happened that you decided, okay, I’m not gonna be a woman anymore to getting all the changes and going through those changes that you woke up one day and said, I am officially a man and that old person is gone and I am now in.
Innis: I definitely feel like. My whole life. I felt that there was something going on that I just did not really know what it was. So I always felt like I was different from every group out there. It wasn’t even just, you know, in, in elementary school, middle school, hanging out with the boys versus the girls, because everything is gender separated at that point, when you’re in elementary school I didn’t fit in with either group, which it wasn’t like I was just going to the boys and I felt comfortable and I felt awesome and I felt empowered.
It was like, no, no one wanted anything to do with me [00:10:00] because I just look different. I act different. And so I knew that there was something going on that whole time and I just felt other, I felt separate from every other group that was out there. And when I went to college I started hanging out with a lot of people who were also very weird and I made a lot of friends who were queer gay, lesbian, and I made a couple of trans friends.
They were really the first people that I was physically around, that I was interacting with. Instead of seeing, you know, the random mention on TV or, you know, something like that, where it was usually a parody of a trans person, it was, you know, the trans person was usually the butt of a joke. I wasn’t in a position in my hometown to even meet a trans person.
So when I was finally [00:11:00] in an environment with other people, I kind of got an idea of. Oh, this is something that I suppose anyone can do. You know, this person just decided at a certain point that this is something that they needed to do. Why can’t I do that? And it was really scary because it’s really scary to think, okay, well, my whole life I’ve lived a certain way and I haven’t felt comfortable doing it.
But the thought of doing this is so much more uncomfortable. At what point do I push myself to go there to start exploring that, to start even thinking about it? Because thinking about it was scary. So I was dating someone when I was in college and I started doing some really minute things. I did not talk to her about it at all, but just small things like cutting my hair starting to work out and. She was not into it. It [00:12:00] just, it freaked her out and looking back on it, it’s so funny because it’s such a subtle thing. People cut their hair all the time. People start going to the gym or working out in, in their room all the time. But something about it really bothered her. And that created more of a riff than we had before.
Because as far as our relationship was going, it wasn’t going great, but she kept pushing me further and further away. And at a certain point, I realized that doing these things for myself to figure out what I needed to do to feel comfortable and to feel good about myself was more important than trying to maintain that relationship with her, where she was consistently pushing me away for wanting to do the best thing for myself.
And really at that point, I was just like, fuck it. I can’t do this anymore. And I made [00:13:00] a plan to actually move to the bay area because I needed to just get outta New York. I needed to get outta my hometown. I needed, I was going to college in Albany at the time I needed to just get out of there and be somewhere where no one knew me.
There were a lot of freaks and queers and all sorts of people there that I could feel comfortable with hopefully. And I kind of gave myself an opportunity to have a whole new life and I forced myself to do that and take that on. And to essentially kind of pretend like I did not have the issues that I had, I did not have that layer of insane discomfort and push beyond that because no one knew my story there.
And that was really, really freeing for me to be able to do that.
De’Vannon: I’d say it was a smart [00:14:00] move because you went somewhere where you could start over. You could have like a clean slate. And it’s, you know, it’s, it’s a shame that it is this way. You would think that the people we grew up around would be the most flexible with us and love us the most. But it turns out that they’re the most harsh and judgemental of us in the Hebrew Bible.
Jesus said it this way, a prophet is not without honor, except that it is in his own home because, because people at it from my own home, they got no damn sense. And so and they like to keep us in boxes and they cannot have, they don’t have the expansiveness of mind very often to allow us to change.
And so you made a smart move, you went to an open minded city. It makes perfect sense. You know, you’re trying to do an open minded thing, go somewhere where it’s gonna work. So talk to me more about the necessity of having a support system. So it sounds like this, this trans journey is better not done in a vacuum or alone.
If you can [00:15:00] help with.
Innis: Yeah, it’s it definitely was really important for me to be around people. And you know, this was also 12, 13 years ago, so we didn’t have the resources online that we have right now, or that way to connect with people. It was a lot harder to find information and to become friends with people where I felt that good of a connection that that could sustain me.
So I’m the type of person who needs to really be around someone or something to learn it. I need to physically do it. I can’t just watch it, or I can’t just read about it. And all of a sudden integrate it into my body. I’m very, very. Physical person when it comes to that type of learning. So for me, I, I knew that I just needed to expand the possibility of being around a lot of people.
And, you know, being in San Francisco [00:16:00] proper was great and it was fun. But honestly, I did not see a lot of queers. I did not see a lot of trans people. I saw a lot of lesbians and a lot of gay men and not until I went to Oakland was actually where I met a lot of queers, trans people punks, a lot of people who were my age.
And that’s where I actually found a lot of that support. The majority of that support and the majority of those examples too, to just be like, oh, you’re able to live your life like this. You look super happy. Maybe that’s something that I can do myself. And I was also seeing so many different variations of what type of, you know, person could exist out there as far as the gender spectrum too.
So I didn’t feel like I needed to be stuck into box because I wasn’t all of a sudden, you know, identifying as a woman. And then I was [00:17:00] identifying as a man. I took a lot of time in between and, you know, I identified as non-binary for a very long time and I, I still do, but honestly, at this point in my life, it’s safer and easier for me to just identify as a man, because when it comes to pronouns, when it comes to all that other stuff, especially here in a, you know, fairly closed minded town, It’s a lot easier to see things on a, a binary than seeing things on a spectrum.
And it, it doesn’t bother me at all when people just identify me directly as a trans man or male, because at this point, honestly, I don’t give a fuck I’m I, you know, I know who I am. And as long as someone isn’t coming up to me and using my dead name and using, you know, sheep pronouns, I don’t fucking care.
So for me to [00:18:00] have that community and have those people around me, not only supporting me and supporting my journey and not questioning it too, which was a huge thing, not kind of forcing me to do other things that I wanted to do to present myself in different ways than I wanted to, which is things that happened when I was growing up.
I was able to really feel comfortable. And supported and safe in exploring it because no one gives you a roadmap to this is how you transgender, you know, like no one says, you gotta change your clothes, you gotta do this. You gotta do that. It’s something that you kind of approach in a way that is accessible to you, is comfortable to you.
There are so many variations and, and reasons why you may decide to change your clothes or cut your hair or change your name and the kind of way that that [00:19:00] goes. And the steps that you do are really dependent on, in my opinion, dependent on your environment. And what’s available to you and accessible to And what you feel comfortable with. So to be in a place like the bay area, like Oakland, where essentially everything was kind of accessible to me was the best choice that I could have made at that point.
De’Vannon: And so when you have fully like physically transitioned, you had top three bottom surgeries, everything right. Okay. And so cuz I’m hearing what you’re saying in terms of the kind of like the variety of what’s accessible to people. Sometimes I come across people who’ve only maybe had like maybe say a girl transitioning to a guy may have only had the top surgery and things like that in their, you know, you know, at various stages, some people may not want to go, you know, as far as you’ve gone, you know, like you were [00:20:00] saying, you, what you’re saying is quite perfect, you know, it depends on what’s comfortable and then also accessible in terms of healthcare, you know, and everything like that.
So I wanna talk about the surgeries in particular, but before we get on that, I wanna talk about a little bit more about the feelings and emotions just briefly. Like how you were talking about, it feels more comfortable being identified as a man or non-binary. And I love that sexual orientation and gender identity is fluid.
So on Monday I might feel more like a woman and might prefer she, and then on Tuesdays, I might feel more like a guy and who knows or will be on Wednesday. And I, and I think that that’s a very liberating way to be. So, so it seems like, so I want to be sure that I’m understanding this correctly. So growing up, you were more like confused.
You didn’t really know where you fit in. You just knew something was different now that you are at the point in the transition where you want it to go, where you feel like is the fulfillment for [00:21:00]you. It sounds like you don’t have any confusion anymore. Is that accurate?
Innis: don’t have any confusion, but you know, thinking about how I feel about gender and my own gender and my own body it’s I still kind of have no fucking idea. And it’s not that I’m confused. I’m, I’ve just kind of let go of searching so strongly all the time, which can become really exhausting. And at this point now in my life, I really feel like it’s just gonna go the way that it’s gonna go.
And I’m more comfortable with just allowing things to happen instead of forcing them to happen. And that may be because I’ve been doing this for so long or because I’m so fucking tired or whatever reason is, but yeah, I don’t, I don’t feel confused. I just kind of feel like almost like nothing like everything and nothing exists at the [00:22:00] same time and I’m just gonna be open and okay with what’s happening.
But at this point where I am now, I do feel way more comfortable than I did five, 10 years ago.
De’Vannon: I hear what you’re saying, because how shall I say this? You’ve learned to let go of like a certain expectation upon yourself, because I think that’s a wise thing to do because oftentimes we fall into a trap of trying to find, you know a way to describe ourselves or a way to categorize ourselves. And what we’re searching for is something that society may have put in us.
Something someone may have told us and we get things. Get down into our subconscious, it seeps into our subconscious, whether we realize it or not from movies, we watch the off the cuff things. People say as we’re on the subway or on the train or whatever the case may be. And so I think it’s a smart thing to abandon a [00:23:00] need to, to identify every little fucking thing about ourselves.
If it gets frustrating, you always have a right to just be. So I think that you are in a very good spot right now. Okay.
Innis: that that need to identify every single little thing has been so exhausting. And I know that it could be really empowering for people at the beginning. When you know, all of a sudden you realize you’re gay or all of a sudden you realize you’re trans and you’re just like, holy shit, I have this word.
Now I have this community. I’ve unlocked so many different things, but where do I fit into that? And having to identify all of those little things is kind of makes you feel so great. You’re like, okay, I’m, I’m gay, I’m a bear. I’m a top, you know, like you start going into these little boxes and you feel so great about it.
But at this point now I’ve packed all of the boxes. I’ve unpacked all of the boxes [00:24:00] and I’m just, I’m just fucking tired. So I don’t need, I don’t feel the need to have to do that anymore. And I also feel like I’ve established. With my family, with my friends, with my community, into a place where I feel like I am also being seen in a way that makes me feel good too.
So I don’t feel like I constantly have to push myself out there and say, you know, I am X, Y, Z, which is really a really nice place to be. So I decided
De’Vannon: I love how personal this trans journey is. Cause so much of what you’re saying in is, is being very clear on who you are, what you want. What’s gonna work. What’s not gonna work. This trans journey looks completely different from, for everybody. Although there may be some intersectionality, but what I’m mainly hearing is you, you you’ve gotta get, you’ve gotta know you, you gotta get clearer on who you are and be sure that what you want to do and the changes you wanna make are because you wanna make them.
Okay, so for the surgeries, [00:25:00] we’re gonna talk about the top surgery. Then we’re gonna talk about the bottom surgeries. Then we’re gonna talk about the mental health aspect in that order, unless we catch the holy ghost and decide to spin all over the place, which is also cool. so talk to me about the top surgery.
How did that go? What happened?
Innis: to have top surgery about around 2015 or so. And I never felt comfortable with my breasts at all. It was just something that happened during puberty that I was like, okay, I guess this is what my body’s gonna do. And I couldn’t do anything about it. And luckily for me, I had a very small chest. I’m sure if I had a larger chest, it would’ve been more difficult for me.
And I didn’t hate my body. It was just that I was like, this is in my head. This is not how I see what my upper body is, you know, supposed to look like. [00:26:00] And I actually had not started testosterone yet at all. I had top surgery before I did that. And a lot, you know, a lot of people do that. A lot of people start a testosterone beforehand and I went to a surgeon and she.
I’ve now found out is a fairly awful surgeon who spreads a lot of lies about a lot of her procedures to try and get more clients and patients. She took care of me fairly well, but she failed to tell me that everyone in the surgery center was sick with the flu when I was having surgery. So I actually got the flu as I was recovering from top surgery, which, you know, I had never had a major surgery in my life.
I didn’t know how it was gonna go, but dealing with coughing and having a fever and having all that [00:27:00] stuff that comes along with the flu. While I had stitches on my chest, you know, I was coughing up against a, a pillow so that I wouldn’t pop any of my stitches. And finally, when we were able to get ahold of her, because of course my wife couldn’t get ahold of her on the phone at all.
She was like, oh yeah, sorry, everyone at the search center they have the flu and I was just like, bitch, I don’t even fucking have healthcare. And you’re just gonna casually say, oh yeah, everyone has the flu. You probably have the flu. Like, no shit. I have 103 fever. So we were scrambling to try and figure out how to take care of having the flu as well as taking care of all of my wounds and, you know, sutures and all of that stuff that’s going on.
And having these surgeries, you have to be active in wound care and taking care of that, making sure your bandages are clean and clear and [00:28:00] usually have these drains that you have to strip with fluid and blood in it. So it’s a really. Intimidating thing. And for me, if I didn’t have my wife with me, if I didn’t have someone like that, caring for me, I don’t know what I would’ve done.
But it was kind of the first thing that I did that I knew felt right for myself. And to be totally honest, like I did not feel good or comfortable with my chest until probably about like at least two to three years afterwards. And for me, I’m really slow to change and feeling comfortable with change and such a large change like that.
Something that I envisioned in my head for so long that I wanted, but once it had actually happened, I was like, shit, this is not, you know, I’m like thinking in my head, gonna have these nice pecks. I’m gonna just like, look really strong and hot. And my chest was [00:29:00] concave, cuz I had no muscle underneath and at a certain point, like right after surgery, once all the swelling was gone, you could actually see my heart kind of pumping.
You could see everything moving underneath because I had such a lack of fat and muscle and it was really fucking scary. And it was not at all, what I thought was gonna happen. So after that it’s like, okay, do I wanna go on testosterone to kind of help bulk myself up and change these things? Cause I know that will change because all of the working out in the world, I don’t know if I’m gonna be able to fix this.
So it kind of like spurred me feeling more comfortable to start testosterone because there were certain things now after having this large change that I was like, I really feel like starting testosterone. You know, having chest hair having the ability to grow and build muscle more easily [00:30:00] would really help me feel better.
So it kind of like opened up the gate for essentially more medical procedures. Yeah.
De’Vannon: agree with you that, that doctor who, who gave you the flus, a total batch, be E T C. She’s a fucking.
Innis: Yeah, yeah. Unbelievable.
De’Vannon: And a cont tab boot and a cont
Innis: Yeah.
De’Vannon: oh my God. I am so sorry that all of that happened to you, but I appreciate your transparency and being willing to tell other people about this. So, in, in hindsight, would you, if somebody else was considering going down the, the female to male journey, do you think it is a good idea to get the testosterone first or which you still do it after?
And I know everybody’s body is different and there’s gonna be variables, but.
Innis: that’s, that’s really, it it’s honestly like there’s, there’s [00:31:00] no real way to do this. You, you can start testosterone, you can have top surgery first. You could have bottom surgery first. You know, it’s not a linear thing at all. And it’s also depends on what your goal is. If your goal is to just not have breasts, just get rid of your breasts.
You know, you don’t have to be on testosterone. You don’t have to have these other procedures because it’s really about how you’re feeling for me. was so hesitant to start testosterone because all of a sudden I felt like I was gonna wake up the next day and, and have a beard and a little completely different, which is not what happens by the way.
And I was just terrified to do that. And I actually started on a very low dose for over a year of testosterone. Just to that, if I felt like I didn’t wanna do it anymore. A lot of the changes that happened during that time, you know, would be not very noticeable because I was really honestly [00:32:00]worried about the mental aspects of it, how it would affect how I felt about myself or my thought patterns or anything like that.
It really, like we said before, it depends on what’s accessible to you. If you have healthcare, if you don’t. If you have surgeons near you, because there are a lot of parts of the United States and elsewhere that you might not have a great surgeon and you might not want to go to that person. So trying to figure out if you want to go across state lines, travel, if you wanna pay out of pocket for certain procedures, it’s a lot to have to really take on and, and decide.
And medical system now is honestly a lot better than it was then, and it’s easier to get information. But at that time I really felt like I was just. Scouring the internet for anything that I possibly could. And of course, I go to the one surgeon. Who’s just like a [00:33:00] pure fucking bitch, but I had no idea, but you know what?
She gave me a chance that now many years later I feel pretty good about. But in retrospect, if I could have done things differently, hell yeah, I would’ve done them differently, but this is where I am now.
De’Vannon: Yes, he has very good looking chess. I, I personally think Annas is super fucking hot and he can stick his Dick in me in, he can stick his Dick in me any day, which brings us to the bottom surgeries. Tell us how was Dick created? We want to know.
Innis: Well, there are a lot of different kinds, but I could talk about my surgery specifically. I have pH plasty and that means that I use a donor site from one portion of my body to create the actual pH Fallas. So you could, there’s a couple of different kinds, but what most people choose [00:34:00] is to use their arm or their leg as their donor site.
So essentially you kind of clear out a spot on your body, however, large, your, your surgeon is gonna say six inches by six inches, seven inches by seven inches. And you start with hair removal because if you don’t, you’re gonna have a hairy penis and. Some people may be okay with that. Some might not, but the point is also, it helps with healing.
It helps with complications. I did 34 hours of electrolysis and I probably cleared out maybe half of my hair. So if you think about that cost a couple thousand dollars and about a year, and I still did not do all of the hair removal that I needed to. Luckily I haven’t had any sort of complications because of that.
But when you [00:35:00] choose to have bottom surgery, it’s kind of like an, a car thing. You can choose what procedures you want in addition to creating the penis itself. So there’s creating the penis. There’s SC autoplasty where you create Aquile S SAC. And in the future, if you decide to get. An erectile device, essentially, you will end up getting implants inside of that S to fill out the S and have more prominent testicles.
There’s glands plasty, which creates the head of the penis itself. These are all things that you can choose if you want or not. And the, the big thing is urethra lengthening, which means either you’re going to pee out of your penis or not. And there are a lot of ways to reroute your urethra to maybe you’ll end up urinating out of the bottom of your penis, [00:36:00] behind your scrotum.
It really depends on where your anatomy is. And also what your goals are. Some people don’t care about sitting to pee after all of that. Because a lot of the complications right now for foul plasty are within the U length and. And myself personally, I’ve had four procedures after having urethra lengthening to fix my pain right now, because I get to a certain point where I almost can’t pee due to tissue growth on the inside of my urethra.
And then they remove it and hope that it doesn’t grow again. But so far in the past, yeah, seven months or so after my last surgery, I’ve had to have a couple of fixes. So it’s a lot and it’s a massive, massive recovery time. But yeah, essentially for myself, I used my leg because I didn’t want to [00:37:00] risk any sort of damage to my hands.
I work in fine art and I really needed to be able to not worry about swelling from my hands or any sort of issues that would impact my. And using my leg, a lot of people actually are not good candidates because of the amount of fat on their leg. What they’ll end up doing is cut out a large group of skin and the fat down to your muscle.
And that gets rolled up into a tube, essentially, that tube gets stitched onto your body. And then you heal that and all different surgeons, you know, you may do SCRO autoplasty at the same time. You may only do that. I’ve had three surgeries so far out of four, hopefully. And it’s been, I started in October, 2020, so I actually started kind of like, you know, [00:38:00] height of COVID in New York, for sure.
It was a pretty scary time to be in the hospital and also taking on this huge, crazy procedure.
De’Vannon: Okay. What I’m thinking, as you’re saying that. And again, I appreciate you so much for the people who like to hate like trans people and, and things like that for, to, to be willing to go through everything that you have described today are to achieve your truest, highest self.
You know, I th your haters couldn’t go through all of that. , you know, it’s much easier to, to set, set back somewhere and then just say, all trans people are the devil or whatever the case may be. It’s bills above or whatever, but. You know, but the person who has compassion and mercy and [00:39:00]empathy is gonna actually, you know, look at what, what, what, what all you’re talking about today and just throw all kinds of love your way, because you were so unhappy that you’re willing to go through all of this, you know, just to get some goddamn peace, I’m goddamn peace.
You know, this is, you know, somebody in your position doesn’t need anybody closing any doors in their face or trying to make life harder for them. You know, I just, I just wanted to say that and, and I don’t really spend a whole lot of time. You know, worrying too much about like the haters and stuff out there.
And you know, our Republicans, not our Republicans, them damn Republicans and you know, and people like that because they’re not my ministry. You know, my ministry are people who are about to transition people. Who’ve been discarded and rejected by society. You are my focus, not people who think they have their shit together enough to be judging [00:40:00] and coming for other people.
But for whatever it might be worth. I had a dream the other night morning or whatever that it was like, it was like, it’s like, it was like Republicans. And like your evangelicals, like those, that class of people who are very hateful towards people and they don’t seem to see any fault as it in it. It’s like I heard him sing a song and it’s a life.
They were. It’s like, they were trying to figure out how they went, how they went so wrong and what, what they could be, what they could do different towards the people who they used to inflict. So it’s all in my dream of this song that they were singing seems to, it seems to speak that, that God maybe bringing a change to some of these people’s hearts that I’m just gonna like, leave that there.
And, and so,
so there, so there’s a lot of, so we’re gonna move on [00:41:00] from the, from the bottom surgery. I will say this. Can I, can I tell people about your website? So site,
Innis: yeah,
De’Vannon: so his website and I usually would save this till the end, but this is like the perfect time right now. What’s called N wolf.com. That’s I N N I S w O l.com.
Can I tell him about the Instagram.
Innis: absolutely.
De’Vannon: Okay, then there’s instagram.com/its Wolf. Of course, all of this will go in the showy notes as it always does. And he has delighted us with a delicious and delectable photo journey. Oh my God. I’m so excited of his, of his really, really love Dick. I’m a total. Bottom
is.
Innis: I had no idea.[00:42:00]
De’Vannon: And there’s a then there’s a photo photo journal documenting his transition y’all so you can go in there and see the changes as they happen. And I believe you have a contact form in there too, so that if someone may have a question or concern, you can actually reach out to, and he can tell you what you need to know or do you know?
And so, so I have a little question before we move on to the mental health about the, about the de. Now some men that I have been with in my day have given their dicks nicknames I was, I was fucking, you know, there was a guy who I was hanging out with and his, his Dick’s nickname was Ker. And so he would’ve, he would’ve died before I ever, you know, you know, of course I never spoke this, you know, to any of his friends or nothing like that, you know, this was for, for Bowden.
So I was just wondering if maybe [00:43:00] your Dick has a nickname. The
Innis: No one has ever asked me that. And I appreciate it more than you will ever know. It doesn’t have a nickname, but my wife and I joke a lot that it’s the million dollar Dick, because we’ve been adding up how much these procedures have been costing. And we’re at like the halfway mark right now. So my assumption is that by the time I’m done, we’re gonna be real close to, you know, three quarters or a million bucks.
And it’s yeah, it’s a real expensive Dick. Million dollar deck. I have a feeling that that may make its way into the show title for this
for me specifically
De’Vannon: Okay. So let’s talk about mental health, cuz it was in our pre-call that we had before this, the mental health aspect of this and the way therapists claim to transitioning was incredibly important to you. And so I really want you to [00:44:00] just give. Floor and talk to us about why, if people are gonna transition mental health is so crucial.
Innis: being isolated in a community where there weren’t any other people that I could really talk to about this, where I didn’t have other trans people like. I know it sounds silly, but I’m like the only trans person I know here out of 35,000 people, and I’m sure they exist, but I haven’t met them yet. So it’s like, I’m really, really isolated.
And my wife doesn’t wanna hear all of my complaints because she hears 90% of them all the time. So it’s like, I’m gonna save a portion of them for someone else so that she doesn’t kick me outta the house. And I really, I needed to find someone who I could trust and who I could talk to. And my choices here were okay, you get in the car and you drive for an hour, you get in the car and you drive for two [00:45:00] hours.
I’ve been going down to New York city this entire time that I’ve lived here to just get my healthcare. And obviously there’s a lot of mental healthcare there, but I can’t drive. You know, I can’t take my whole day essentially and pay a shit ton of money just to get down to the city, to, to speak to someone about this.
It would actually be worse than, than being able to talk to someone. So I to actually speak to a therapist to get letters for these surgeries, because there are. Certain procedures that you need to get letters for my top surgery, my hysterectomy, which I got before bottom surgery and bottom surgery, all required letters from mental health professionals and usually more than one.
And that’s that’s standard. That’s pretty much anyone. So I was seeing a therapist [00:46:00] kind of over the border in Jersey for a while and she was, she was great, but she was really geared towards children and she kind of had a lot of clients who. Kids or teenagers. And that’s also kind of what her office looked like.
That’s also kind of how she spoked to you. And it was, it was kind of good for me in the beginning because I’m like, essentially I’m a child, you know, essentially I’m going through puberty all over again. Essentially I’m doing these things that, you know a boy would’ve done when he was 13, 14, whatever.
So I’m like, maybe this is fitting, but after a couple years, I was like, I, I can’t spend all this money going all the way there to kind of just be treated like a child and deal with a few of the issues that I have, then go home and think about it for two weeks. It wasn’t working out for me. So. [00:47:00]What ended up actually happening was when COVID really became a thing.
Telehealth really became a thing and, you know, you have better help. And all of these mental health groups now that are online. And that was really a huge game changer for me. Being able to look online and see who actually, you know, worked with LGBTQ, a people who worked with trans people who, you know, had any sort of knowledge or basis of clients, anything like that.
I was able to pick and choose. And my therapist now, actually I think I’m her only trans client, but at this point in my life, a lot of my issues that I have are also just kind of very general issues, not specific to me being trans. And she’s been really good about a lot of that stuff. And she is knowledgeable.
She does [00:48:00] work with, you know, the community, but I feel like it’s, it kind of feels more of like a, a partnership and a mutual thing at this point where I’m not just educating a therapist where I’m not just having a therapist, that’s only rooted in gender stuff. There’s a lot more give and take, and there’s a lot more exchanging of information that I had in the past, which makes me feel really comfortable.
Because honestly, like all of my issues, aren’t trans based all of my issues. Aren’t just about my surgeries and to be able to not hyper focus on that has been really good for me, but there was a time in my life where I did need to hyper focus on that. Every single thing about my life and all of my issues were. About being trans and about gender and about surgery. And being able to talk to someone about that, who wasn’t a friend, wasn’t a family, wasn’t [00:49:00] someone part of my community who didn’t know my shit really made me feel comfortable to just let it all out. And it was really, really helpful for me to be able to do that, to feel comfortable and to feel supported by someone who didn’t know anything about me,
De’Vannon: I’m curious. And is the, the letters that you had to get from the mental health professional in order to get the top and bottom surgery, what sort of information would be in it?
Innis: the information that would be in it is essentially saying that you are mentally sound and able to make these choices for yourself. Because obviously having bottom surgery. Has so many surgeries that you’re really being assessed about. If you are going to be able to take that on, and it’s not only just yourself mentally, but do you have a support system?
Do you have a [00:50:00] caretaker? Do you have people around you who are going to be able to care for you mentally, physically? So it’s really speaking to your therapist or a psychiatrist or whoever it is, and making a plan for being able to have these surgeries and go into it, feeling good, go through it, feeling good and, and you know, to continue living your life, knowing that you had a plan, even if things go wrong, because things come up that you don’t expect.
Just knowing that you were prepared for this and having essentially an assessment by a mental health professional who said, yeah. You know, I think that you’re able to take this on and especially if it’s someone who you have been to a lot and who you’ve spoken to a lot that’s someone who can definitely assess and say yes or no.
So those are required by [00:51:00] surgeons to be able to get a lot of these surgeries.
De’Vannon: Okay, thank you for. Down. I appreciate how thorough the process is. Okay. So then the last two items, politics and religion. So Roe V. Wade just got kicked in the nuts sack the other day by our ratchet ass Supreme court, or at least conservatives. And how gross is it that Clarence Thomas of all damn people wants to lecture people on sexual relations.
He look like he ain’t fucked ever so, and so the people who, who are the grossest wanna tell us what we can and can’t do with our penises and vaginas and assholes and mouth and hands and ears and eyes and nose. Oh, hell. Now what do
Innis: Yep. I know.
De’Vannon: about the future of trans rights in light of this RO V way? Fuck.
Innis: You know, it’s, this is a really [00:52:00] huge blow to a lot of things, and it’s not only the rights that are being taken away, but it’s also confidence. It’s planning. It’s people’s futures. Having surgery going through whatever a trans person decides to do. It’s not like you could decide you wanna have surgery and it happens tomorrow.
There are so many things that you have to plan for, and it takes years and years and years that to have to be in this position right now, where yes, there may be trans rights that may be taken away or change healthcare. How the fuck are you supposed to plan for that? How are you supposed to, you know, plan your life around these things that you’re anticipating happening, or maybe you’re in the middle of, and you don’t know if it’s gonna be there next month or not.
And I felt a lot similar in, but [00:53:00] in a different way during the last administration. It’s kind of like every single day, I was fucking freaking out about whether or not this thing was gonna get taken away from me. This thing was gonna get taken away from me. My marriage was going to, you know, be garbage.
It was just all of the things that I had worked so hard for, for four years. I was terrified about if they were going to be taken away and even just a really good example is I had a hysterectomy. So I’m on testosterone. I need to have hormones in my body all the time, because if I don’t essentially, I’m just gonna go right into menopause and I’m not gonna feel good about that.
And then I’m also gonna have to decide, okay, do I need to take estrogen now? Because I have no hormones in my body, if I’m not able to access testosterone, which throws away however many years of my life that I had been working [00:54:00] towards. My body and my mental health and been on this plan. So it’s really fucking scary.
And there are a lot of people who are working on this, who are, you know, the a C L U, there are so many groups of people who are fighting against this and the whole thing And the whole thing is we can’t leave this just up to those people. You know, you have to, if you have money, you gotta donate it. You have to give it to the people who are doing this work, because you’re not going up to Clarence Thompson being like, Hey, can you change this?
You know, can I slip you 20 under the table? And can you fix these things? There are, there are so many people who need to go through these procedures bring up these lawsuits, figure out triage, essentially how to deal with what’s happening right now in if there is a possibility that certain things are going to be taken away because.
It is happening. And I [00:55:00] know for me, specifically, being in New York, I’m protected in a lot of ways, but who knows what’s gonna happen in the future. And it is really fucking scary. And the only thing that I could say is, you know, for trans people specifically do the things that you know, that you can do that will give you some sense of security.
If you haven’t changed your name and it’s something that you wanna do do it. Now, if you haven’t changed your gender and it’s something that you’re thinking about doing do it. Now, if you aren’t on a wait list for surgery that you’ve been thinking about, just get on the wait list, you don’t have to commit to anything, but kind of setting ourselves.
For the things that we can, and then also supporting our community in the ways that we can, by donating money to the people who are actually fighting these things by, you know, raising awareness. And by also talking to people who aren’t a part of our community, because you know, maybe this isn’t gonna [00:56:00] matter to my family because it’s not directly affecting them, but it’s affecting me and you kind of have to raise the point about, okay, well, do you really care about me?
Because if not, you’re showing it because you’re not doing anything. If you do care about it, you have to think about who you’re voting for. You have to think about where your money is going. You have to think about if you’re showing up to protests or talks or whatever it is, and just being a physical body, showing that you’re not gonna stand for this shit because trans people are fucking tired.
Queers are fucking tired. Whole group of the LGBTQIA, a community is fucking tired and it’s not fair to just expect us to take care of all of these things. Ourself it’s like having, you know, women’s rights with Roe. This also affects trans people. There are a lot of [00:57:00] people who want to get pregnant. Those people may not access abortion.
Now, those people may not be able to access certain reproductive rights. So it’s not just specific to women. There are so many non-binary people. There are so many trans men, there are so many trans-masculine people who want to be able to, you know, have a baby access, these types of services. And also can’t now so it’s so important for the people who.
Know that this is an issue and really feel passionate about it. To know that it’s also affecting trans people as well.
De’Vannon: that sounded like the Ben addiction on a Sunday morning, you broke it the fuck down. I’m I’m, I’m just gonna, you know, you mentioned speaking to people who are not of our community, you know, so I’m just gonna [00:58:00] remind the hateful bitches of this one thing right here. And so you know, it is no human has a right to control and corral.
Another none of us are righteous enough to find fault in other people. So much of the gospels are centered around anti hypocrisy in the moment. Any of us think that we are righteous enough to straighten someone else out. We become a hypocrite because no one can judge us, but God. So we cannot judge ourselves righteous.
The perfect example of this for me is the whole road to Damas is the conversion thing. And, you know, everybody gets all giddy because Paul was changed, but my mind is on what he was on his way to do. So what he did was he went and got the, the, the politicians, the religious leaders of the land, the San heed.
To give him legal backing to go and force people to act like he thought they should be acting. And which is exactly what the Supreme court just did. They allowed a law to pass because Republicans want to force people to act a certain way. Same shit all did. [00:59:00] And Jesus himself said, bitch, don’t do that.
It’s really just that simple. And so that’s my last word for the day. What would you like to say? And then I’m not gonna say shits, because I already told people where to find you its Wolf do com Instagram do com slash its, it’ll go in the show notes, take us home.
Innis: really appreciate the opportunity to talk about this stuff because my wife said yesterday, I was like, I. Kind of nervous about this, you know, it’s, there are so many things that I feel really passionate about and we’re really only like scraping the surface just, but you love to talk about yourself. And I was like, okay.
Okay. All right. So here we are, talking about it. And, but these questions and these issues are really the important things. And these are [01:00:00] things that happen in my life. These are things that happen in so many other trans and nonbinary people’s lives. That a lot of people aren’t aware of, you know, people are like, oh, you had surgery.
Yeah. I had surgery and I was out of work for three months and it cost me X, Y, Z. And it was really hard and it was all those things, but they just take it at face value and it’s almost. It’s like a double edged sword where someone may see you and say, wow, you’re so brave and strong. And you did all these things.
And it’s amazing. And it’s like, yes, but I also really suffered during it. It was also very, very difficult, but I also had to do it for survival. That’s the difference is so many people just go through the world, not thinking about how they need to survive. They’re thinking about how they’re thriving.
They’re thinking about how to get to the next thing, how to get the next car, how to get the next house, how to, you [01:01:00] know, do whatever they’re working on. And they are so many people, my myself included. I’m not necessarily worrying about like, oh shit, I wanna have this great career. And I wanna have X, Y, Z.
It’s like, no, I just wanna feel like I don’t wanna claw my skin off. And that’s what my focus is, is to really just feel good in my body right now. And it has kind of almost put me in a position where all of those other things that other people have, or they’re working on right now. I’m not even there. And that’s a very strange thing to think about when I think about my peers. And I think about my friends and my family, they’re not even concerned with this stuff. And the one thing that I could say is, you know, that’s probably something that CIS people should kind of think about once in a while [01:02:00]is we are in so many different places in our lives.
And the fact that being trans can take a financial toll, it could take a mental toll. It takes a physical toll. You know, it takes a lot and a lot of people are tired and a lot of people struggle with this process. And as a CIS person, especially as a straight person those people could just be sensitive to that and more aware and think about, Hey, if I was just in the hospital for a week, or Hey, if I was just out of work for two months, because I had this huge procedure that essentially changed a major body part, how the fuck would I feel?
You know, is everything gonna be all right? Probably not. So check in on your trans friends, [01:03:00] check in on your non-binary friends, bring them fucking dinner. Take them out, pay for their shit, donate to them and do that specifically to your black and brown and indigenous trans friends, because they need it more than fucking anyone.
And if you don’t have any of those friends go online, do little Google and donate, donate your money to the people who need it, because more than likely they’re going through something that you can’t even imagine. And they need support. And financial support honestly is one of the best ways that you could show that you care and that you’re showing up.
And just being there for someone makes a huge difference. And I know specifically for myself, I just wanna be seen, I just wanna be [01:04:00] seen as a person. And that really is my goal. And when the world, the rest of the world with everything that’s going on right now does not see me as a person does not see women as people does not.
You know, so many people feel invisible right now. And the people who have the privilege to not worry about that and have feet on the ground and feel good about themselves. Just try and spread that around a little bit, because it makes a huge difference.
De’Vannon: And amen. Thank you so much for coming on this show today. I’m gonna put the a C L U in the show notes as well.
Innis: Yes, absolutely. Thank you.
De’Vannon: Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the sex drugs in Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. [01:05:00] Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at SexDrugsAndJesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.
My name is De’Vannon and it’s been wonderful being your host today and just remember that everything is gonna be right.
