Episode #37: Leadership Challenges and Heterosexual Drama within the Church, Church Overreach and General Church F*ckery with Leadership Coach Jerry Fu, PharmD, ACC


Jerry Fu was born in the United States, growing up in a Taiwanese family. He encountered conflicts at work, in culture, and within himself. He didn’t know how to handle any of it, and he didn’t know where to look for help. Worse, he lost a job because he continually avoided conflict with an upset boss. But getting fired was the wake-up call he needed. Jerry had to adapt myself and improve as a leader, which meant engaging the conflict he disliked so much. Ironically, his ongoing struggle with conflict became a fascination. Now, Jerry helps others take on the same challenges. Jerry’s clients experience three benefits:

1. Clarity in next steps to take

2. Confidence to take them 

3. Closure after overcoming the difficulty

Jerry is also a pharmacist and a leadership coach. He works with Asian-American professionals on their career and life journeys. He focuses on resolving clients’ conflict at work, in culture, and within themselves. His services include one-on-one coaching, group workshops, and keynote presentations.

Before starting his coaching business, Jerry completed a Biology degree at Rice University. He also attended pharmacy school at the University of Tennessee-Memphis. Teaching a leadership workshop in 2012 inspired him to become a pharmacy manager. He completed the CoachRICE Leadership Certificate Program in spring of 2020. He is an ICF-certified coach and certified talent optimization consultant with Predictive Index. His interests include travel, cooking, playing guitar/piano, and lots of salsa dancing. If you’ve read this far, then this poses the question: What can JFu do for you?

INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to):

·      Heterosexual Drama in the Church

·      Leadership Challenges in the Church

·      Church Overreach

·      The Right Way to Turn a Guy Down

·      Complicated Women and How They Hinder Themselves

·      Open Mindedness vs. Closed Mindedness

·      Approval Addiction

·      Warnings Against Hypocrisy

·      The Misuse of Scripture

·      Xenophobia in Houston, Texas

·      A Funny Masturbation Story



Website & Coaching: https://www.adaptingleaders.com

LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/34m6iop


 Barking Up The Wrong Tree: https://amzn.to/3qSqN3F

Designing Your Life: https://amzn.to/33bsn8z

Designing Your Work Life: https://amzn.to/3f0OiCh

The Advice Trap: https://amzn.to/3zANoFV

Decisive: https://amzn.to/3n2lAp8





Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.com

YouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCM

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopix

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannon

Email: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com



·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)


TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs


·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com


·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net


·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org


·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org




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You’re listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De’Vannon and I’ll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what’s really going on in your life.

There is nothing off the table and we’ve got a lot to talk about. So let’s dive right into this episode.

De’Vannon: Hello. Hello. Hello everyone. And welcome back to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast. I’m super excited to have you back with me today, and I appreciate it very much today. We have on our show for the second time, Mr. Jerry Fu. He is our favorite salsa dancer and leadership coach, and he is back to spill some major church tea with us today. Now this guy has got some major education and experience under his belt, but I feel like his life experience is his best qualification. And that’s why I wanted to talk to this man. Again, [00:01:00] Jerry used to be a volunteer leader at a large church in Houston, Texas. So he’s going to be spilling all the heterosexual drama from within this church. And it, and I wanted to highlight this because the church has always want to talk about the gays and everything like that. They don’t wanna talk about the shit that straight people do.. And so we spilling all the church T today, we’re gonna talk about xenophobia in Houston, Texas. And Jerry was also going to bless us with a funny masturbation story, which, which is just like, yeah, you just need to hear it. Enjoy the show.

 Today we have the amazingly incredible, the wonderful, the insightful, the intuitive, the shrewd, the wise, the quite detailed and Uber focused Jerry Fu back with us today for the second damn time. Jerry, how the fuck are you?

Jerry: And, you?

know, January says racing, but I’m good. 

De’Vannon: Right? It’s like the recording is on the 14th. So basically the month halfway over, [00:02:00] it seems like I was just sipping champagne on new year’s not too long ago.

Jerry: Yeah, I know. It’s like I did everything I could just to stay calm and to stay in and reflect. And I’m like, I’m gonna do my best to stay for this, but here we go. 

De’Vannon: You hit the nail on the hip word state in with Ms. W Ms. Omicron out there. I don’t cancel all my travel and shit. Stay, stay in is the what’s happening? We ain’t going no damn where we’ll see where we’re at about June and go from there. I know so many fucking people with it and they’re vaccinated and boosted and everything.

But this only crime, I think it just gets high off the vaccine.

Jerry: Yeah. It’s like your it’s like your Beth. It turns out that was the weapon. The entire time they plant this in you, and then they trigger it and you’re like, oh, I thought that was protecting myself. It turns out I start with myself in my own in my own bunker. Right. 

De’Vannon: Now. So since we’re going to be inside, we might as well create a, [00:03:00] another great podcast for people to feast on. Now we know, we know Jerry has the incredible website, adapting leaders that come, all of his information will go in the show notes again, along with his bio and everything like that. Jerry, is there anything you’d like to people to, to know about you or to hear from you today?

Jerry: Sure. You know, I, I’m grateful to have the opportunity to, you know, tell people my story and, you know, hopefully that career arc is something that can inspire and encourage people and, you know, to ultimately help transform people you know, whether they, whether they enlist my help directly or not. But I’m also thankful for moments like this, where I can kind of pull back the curtain a little more and really unpack some of the crazier things that I just barely get a chance to touch on.

And other podcasts, as you know, you have like the general zoom out overview. And then you have to find that balance of, well here, let me, you know, let me you know, [00:04:00] show a little more, you know, what’s behind the scenes, but not come across as like sub-tweeting or like really bitter or scarred. So trying to find that balance here, but willing to roll the dice.

Right. Cause if we just wanted another boring bland podcast. Sure. Like why would people tune in is so, you know, happy to give you guys some more substance and some examples to really study and sink your teeth into to say, Hey, you know, how did this happen? What can we take away from it? And how do we make sure that other people don’t have to deal with this?

De’Vannon: But I don’t mind if you come across as bitter and scarred, you know what? Sometimes, sometimes the bitches don’t get better and sometimes we might feel scarred, you know what, fuck it. If the shit happens and shit happens. And if 

Jerry: true. I cannot do it. 

De’Vannon: tries to judge you, they can go fuck themselves. 

Jerry: That’s fair. 

De’Vannon: But, you know, y’all, Jerry’s, you know, he coaches people and he helps them to adopt, especially as leaders and things like that, tools that he gives people are effective, both in and out of the [00:05:00] workplace.

But the real shit that we’re about to talk about today, Is why I feel Jerry is super passionate and unique about what he does because he’s able to infuse this real life experiences in to his profession. And there is a deference in between a real motherfucker. Who’s lived through some bullshit and is now helping people suppose as somebody who just went to school for it, Jerry went to school for it and he lived it.

And so when you put those two together, you absolutely cannot lose. So in our last interview, we touched on this, just a tad, but I found it so titillating that I just had to get him, this, this man behind this show. So I can get all the tea and the details. And we may get a little bit shaded today to y’all.

So I’m gonna tell you, as mama Ru would say, the library is open and reading is fundamental. 

Jerry: there we go. 

De’Vannon: So Jerry used the word, this guy. So you, are you, were you working at this church or were you volunteering? What 

Jerry: It’s a, it was a strictly volunteer position. [00:06:00] So on that arc you know, I joined this class and then you know, as like the, as my time there got longer, they said, Hey, you know, we need some help with leadership and can you help step in as the prayer coordinator? And I said, yeah, sure. You know, I can step in like that.

And then after that, they said, well now can you help out with like social events and come up to the core level of leadership? And they said, okay. Yeah, sure. You know, let’s, let’s talk about what’s going on there eventually. It got to a point where they, you know, people ask me, Hey, would you please be director of the, of our class?

You know, no one else is capable or willing. You know, it’s, we need your help now. But, you know, I, I struggled with that decision for a while because I knew what kind of challenges directors would deal with on a continual basis. And, you know, the turnover rate’s not great, you know? And but that.

was at a point where I said, Well, you know, I’m [00:07:00] grateful for the community that this class has offered me the last couple of years.

 I am in the process of continuing to take on leadership challenges. So this will be my challenge for this year. We’ll try to serve a year as a, as a church class director and we’ll see how it goes. So, yeah, that’s how I got to that point, but it was all entirely volunteer. I was never on payroll at the church.

De’Vannon: Well, and I was just curious that, that that’s kind of a moot point in the sense that churches really can’t make it without volunteers. They use a lot of labor. And so, oh, it just like with, I guess all nonprofits you know, volunteers and staff members work in tandem, volunteers are given an incredible amount of access because if, if nonprofits just relied on the staff alone, they would go.

Jerry: Sure. ‘

De’Vannon: cause especially in churches. Cause you know, they don’t pay taxes, but they’ve got all of those, you know, chicken platters to get and you know, all of the bullshit they like to spend money on and you know, they have their priorities and things like that. And you know, when some churches, you know, they got million dollar [00:08:00] Aircrafts and golden toilets and shit and all of that, you know, needs, needs, needs.

Now, are you able to tell me which church this was and what city it was in? 

Jerry: Yeah, sure. I mean, I can, 

De’Vannon: Not that 

Jerry: to tell people where I am, 

De’Vannon: y’all, y’all not, not, not that that matters because the same bullshit happens at churches globally, 

Jerry: yeah. Fair enough. 

De’Vannon: because there’s more about what happened more than where it happened, but I’m a nosy bitch. And so I’m asking everything today.

Jerry: No. Let’s see how it goes here. I can say this much because of this. It tells you something, but not tells you anything. It’s a, it’s a Baptist church here in Houston, So

that’s all you need to know, 

De’Vannon: I would wake forest Baptist out. I just know it. I feel like it’s first Baptist.

Jerry: No, I’m not. I won’t, I will, I will. I can’t deny refute anything. So here we go. 

De’Vannon: Nor deny these allegations 

Jerry: No. 

De’Vannon: so we can sell what was the congregation size.

Jerry: Oh, it’s it’s easily a couple thousands. [00:09:00] I mean, yeah. It’s yeah, yeah, yeah, no, it’s I’d say you are probably right. If not exactly. Right. So we’ll leave it at that. 

De’Vannon: So so then due to the size of the chair, so that means the class sizes and everything like that was rather significant too. So we’re not talking about like a class of three or four people.

Jerry: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, no. They’re like, you could have a class of 40, 50 people easily. There are classes, even in the hundreds, it’s just because yeah. They have a very effective marketing funnel and they have all the best events for single people, you know, whether it was a new year’s Eve party at minute maid park or, you know yeah.

Energy then, you know, they, yeah. I mean, they, they had a lot of resources in deep pockets for sure. And so, yeah, we rode that wave. 

De’Vannon: And so the Baptist people don’t mind drinking. So they had a Christmas Eve party at minute maid park. Was there a refreshing adult libation?

Jerry: No, they, they, they are very, very clear [00:10:00] on that on that bylaw of like, Hey, like, I mean, like pay people. If you’re on payroll at the church, you are not allowed to drink. Like you have to sign a contract it’s in your contract that you are not allowed to check alcohol at all. Anything associated with the church cannot have alcohol.

 And so, yeah, they, there is a there are some funny Facebook groups about, you know, like off-campus Baptist behavior and, you know, we can unpack that later, but the church is very good from a liability standpoint and making sure that there was no alcohol at these, any of them. 

De’Vannon: Wait. So they told you you can not drink alcohol at your private house or anywhere else, just because you were volunteering.

Jerry: No volunteers like it’s, you know, that’s, if you’re on payroll, like if you are employed by the church and are allowed to, as a church members, you know, they it’s the classic like honor system. It’s like, okay, on this campus, you are not allowed to, these are, these are forbid and what you do in your own house.

Like, you know? Yeah. Like he showed [00:11:00] discretion, 

De’Vannon: I still, 

Jerry: that kind of thing. 

De’Vannon: I still think that that is far to them for, for them to reach. Even if somebody is on staff, you don’t own a person. You cannot tell, tell me what to do when I’m in Monday I’m house from scratching my nut sack. If I want to take a shot of Jack Daniels, as long as when I show up to work, my Dick is in my pants where it belongs and I don’t smell like fucking home.

Jerry: Yeah. 

De’Vannon: I did last night. Ain’t your motherfucking business. So why do you think churches are so that they’ll meddlesome and nosy?

Jerry: Well, it’s just, there’s an image to protect, right. There’s a brand. And you know, I look at churches like in other countries like Uganda, or, you know, Mian Mar or China. Right. And it’s like, they’re so caught up doing like the real work of the gospel. They don’t have time to like, argue over like what the song list for Sunday should be.

Or like, you know, did [00:12:00] someone proofread the PowerPoint slides or, you know, other things like that, you know, if if the church is simply just the taxis country club, right? Like this is basically what it feels like. But yeah, I think it’s just a brand to protect them. They’re just like, we need people and their time money to keep our, to keep our thing going.

And so if we leverage in. Promises of like happiness and fulfillment by being a part of our church. Then you know, then this is how the machine goes, right? They’re like, Hey, you know, air conditioning is expensive in Texas. Like we gotta, we gotta keep, We gotta pay Kimmy to pay the bills. We’ve got to pay for our professional musicians.

We want to, you know, advertise, you know, at at soccer games and professional sports events to continue to draw people into our church. So, yeah.

De’Vannon: We got to pay for a million dollar aircraft and limousine rights and state dinners and everything like that. All the things Jesus would’ve wanted us to have the church’s dime. 

Jerry: Yeah, absolutely. 

De’Vannon: So they see [00:13:00] you clean cut gentlemen professional looking now this is a huge church and churches we know were run like businesses.

They have a business model, like what Jerry was just saying, that marketing goals, they have a bottom line. They need to rake in that dose. So they see you and they’re like, you look like the kind of guy we need. That’s exactly where I think they were coming from because they got their types. They profile people and everything like that.

And so so they see that they can use you, that they can utilize you. And, and I just say that evenly after I got fired from the charity you know, years later I realized just how transactional the relationship was, even though I was volunteering, you know, it’s, it’s very much about what can we get out of these volunteers, you know?

And the staff thinks in terms of how can they get volunteers to work them out of a job, so to speak. And so. It’s very there’s a lot of objectivity in the way church members view the volunteers. I mean, church staff, views view [00:14:00] volunteers. So, so are you Baptist? Like why are you at a Baptist church to begin with.

Jerry: yeah, that’s the first question. To dovetail quickly on what you just said, right? There’s this, there’s this balance between you know, people investing in the church that they go to. Right. If it is a family, if it’s like poly style and not like restaurant style, right. Everyone should, if you’re going to be part of the family, you know, it brings something to the table.

Right. On the other hand you don’t want to squeeze those to the point where people just like, oh, I’m just a consumer. I like my job. My only job at church is to like, just show up, you know, listen to a sermon, you know, say some hobble, Louise, and then go home. Right. That’s that’s just, that’s just entertainment.

Right. But no, so I I was start, I started going to a Baptist church when I first became a Christian the woman who moved to Tennessee and began, you know, witnessing to me to use Christian terms, right. You know, to become a Christian she went to the big Baptist church that. was [00:15:00] local and are in my neighborhood.

And so when I became a Christian halfway through high school I started going there. And So it was just kind of like, by default, it was like, well, this is the big church everyone’s going there. So it kinda, it almost it’s like this kind of peer pressure almost. You’re just like, well, you know, this is like the Walmart, you know, everyone shops there, so let’s go.

And so I didn’t realize, you know, everything about the Baptist church. You know, when I started going, I just became when I became a Christian, it just happened to be the biggest and most proximate option in my neighborhood.

De’Vannon: So you say this woman was witnessing you.

Jerry: Yeah. Karen. Yeah. She moved from Pittsburgh to Knoxville in eighth grade and yeah. you.

know, very pretty girl, very flirtatious skirted the dress code, like literally. Yeah. Like. 

De’Vannon: That’s what I was about to ask you where you fucking her.

Jerry: No, no, she was, there was, it was a weird paradox Davanon cause she would like, she went, she liked to dress up and she wore makeup very [00:16:00] well.

And you know like I remember one dress was like barely like, you know, beyond fingertips, but she know, but she, you know, she, this by all the Florida, she made sure she would tell me she’s like Jerry, like parody. Like the only man who will have my virginity is the man I married. And she stuck to it.

She never, you know, she never slept around. She was very, very set on facul, even though she would wear outfits that, you know, any guy with hormones and just be like, it’s like, Karen, come on. That’s not fair. You can’t, don’t tell me to be pure when you all you know, dress up all pretty and flirt with us and then just, you know, and sugar, all these hormones.

And it’s like, okay, now I have to her.

to her credit, she has integrity. 

De’Vannon: You don’t know that you don’t know what the fuck that bitch was doing when she wasn’t around you, unless, unless you, unless the Lord showed you in a vision of, we don’t know what people are doing, we don’t know that. So [00:17:00] you could have been saying hollering purity on one hand and throw on ed policy from the free throw line on the other, but just not to y’all at church.

You doubt when we doubt now 

Jerry: I mean, yeah, 

De’Vannon: for the best in people. And I admire that about you, Jerry, but I see the reality or shouldn’t be. You know, people credited unless they fucking have earned it. She like that girl. You a whole LS, I think otherwise. And I respect you for being in a house. I just be about it.

Shit. I got some, I got a couple of homies here that ain’t nothing but shit.

Jerry: Okay. 

De’Vannon: So, so now you going through all of these roles and everything like that, tell me what was the most intense story that you can remember of somebody who you had to discipline?

Jerry: Oh, yeah. Easy. Well it happened two days on my second day on the job officially, like it was really crazy. So there is a, there is a. The guy who was apparently a physics [00:18:00] professor at the community college here in Houston. And he started showing up to our class and I got to like, I will call him Nick.

All right. And so Nick shows up and, you know, we get to know, obviously it was like in that stuff guys, like, and we don’t, there’s not a strong nucleus of guys in the class, which apparently we need to have it just to have a strong sense of leadership, I guess. But anyway, so I’m trying to recruit, you know, anytime a guy shows up, we try to, you know, play it up and, you know, see if they’re willing to get more involved.

And my second day, as director, after gotten to know Nick for a couple of weeks one of my woman leadership comes to me and says, Hey, Jerry Nick is sexually harassing women in the class. Like, you need to go deal with it. And I’m like, Frick, you didn’t give me a manual. It was just go run towards the gunfire.

Following this grenade. You’re a director. Now you got to handle. It’s like, oh, you know, me growing up all conflict averse. I’m like, I don’t want to deal with this challenge, you know? And then so yeah, and plus I was about to go on vacation no less like this. [00:19:00] I had this vacation plans you know, and so I couldn’t even call this guy up and sit down face to face with him.

I had to do this, you know, over the phone and pray that he just wouldn’t hang up on me. Right. So I call him up and I’m like, Hey, Nick, you know something came up. I just wanted to run this by you. So, you know, women in the class is telling me you’re sexually harassing what’s going on.

De’Vannon: Yeah.

Jerry: And then, you know, he’s like, I don’t know what they’re talking about.

I don’t know what they’re talking about. Like, and I’m just in there thinking, okay, this isn’t. And so, you know, I was still refining my conflict resolution approach. Right. So this is just me thinking on my feet in the moment. And I decided to somehow position myself as a guide of sorts. And I’m like, okay, Nick, as far as I can tell there’s three possibilities.

Right. Or, you know, from, from what evidence has been presented to me, number one, you’re right. And. Like somehow you’re in this sense, it’s true. And they’re just [00:20:00] fabricating things, which means this is probably a misunderstanding of some cons. Right. And so if this is true, then I need you to go talk to them, figure out exactly what things you’re doing, unaware that, you know, you were causing them problems or antagonizing them, you know, apologize.

And then just that’s it. Right. Everything’s back to normal. It’s like, oh, you know, don’t need me run around the pool with my shorts on and no shirt. Okay. Sorry. In mixed company and Baptist. Right? That’s this, you don’t want to do that. That’s a search. This is like, okay. Don’t so just stop that. Okay. You didn’t know any better now, you know, please stop.

That’s it. Right. Possibility. Number two. They are right and you are lying, which means you’re doing something offensive and inappropriate. If you expect to stay part of this class, I need you to go talk to them, apologize and make sure that it doesn’t happen again. Right. And then we will be watching you.

Right or three they are insisting they’re right. And you insist that you’re right. Which means now it’s their word against [00:21:00] yours. And I have to ask you to leave because I’ve known them longer than right. I’ll call her Emily. So Emily who came to me with this information and I’m just like, look, I’ve known Emily for several years now.

And she doesn’t, she has no reason to lie to me about something like this. Right. So, you know, what do you want to do? Like, what is your next action? And he goes, oh, I guess I’d better go sort things out with them. I’m just like, okay. You know, I, you know, I wasn’t privy to the situation. I, I have no personal stake in this.

All I know is I’m in a position where I have to address it. So, you know, let me know how it goes. And then Emily came to me later and she’s like, Yeah.

You know, Nick came to me and said, I guess I have to apologize. And then basically didn’t, but then still kept like, Touching my arm inappropriate leading.

So I just told them, I was just like, okay, you got to leave. And if you show up again, I’m going to tell Jerry and you know, we’re going to have to have words he never showed up again. And so, yeah, it was just a, yeah, I was already exhausted, you know, two days on the job and, and I’m already having to deal with those [00:22:00]

De’Vannon: What did he do to her besides touch her arm? I w what was the.

Jerry: mean, well, the.

stuff like he was just saying offensive things like at one point he was around for 4th of July, like a 4th of July party. And So we were all trying to carpool and stuff. And then at one point, one of the cars was crowded and he was telling him one of the girls, he’s just like, you can sit on my lap. it was just like, Like not, not appropriate for a Baptist setting. Right? Like apparently he was making fun of like one of the women, because he found out like some of her teeth for like fakes or whatever else like that. So he was just, he was just like throwing shade and, you know, just like make, he was just making Hughes.

I don’t know if he’s just trying to develop some kind of rapport or if he thought he was like busting on women with this thought that he thought what he did was flirting or what, but, you know, it’s just, it’s like, dude, what kind of movies have you been watching, man? Like, there’s I don’t know why you think women like being talked to like that.

So yeah,[00:23:00]

De’Vannon: So it sounds like it was a lot of I would say maybe like awkward energy and I guess it happened enough, so she didn’t come hollering to you at the first sign of trouble. So this was like some that built up over time. I’m trying to 

Jerry: a little. 

De’Vannon: I’m trying to make sure she wasn’t being a Karen.

Jerry: Yeah, no, no, no. I mean, there’s, there’s some other things about this girl who I know we can, we can talk about fun stories on that side too, but for this kind of thing, it’s more of like, you know, you have the benefit of a doubt, like one incident where like, okay, maybe that’s just an outlier. Maybe there was just something there.

We, they missed, we’re going to let it go. But then, you know, twice as that habit, right. And then it’s like, okay, now this is definitely a pattern here. We need to make sure we adjust this before It gets any worse. So yeah. Emily. She’s a, she’s a funny case because like at one point we were at a church retreat, this is just a side story.

And went from, we had a church retreat and she ended up [00:24:00] getting sleazy or whatever. And it’s like, she just had this like emotional meltdown about just how things were unfair and how dare they. And like, you know, her switch shoes might be infested with fleas and like, it would, it would just completely like violate her lease and she might get, it was just like all the scores case scenario, just going through her head.

And I’m just thinking, yeah, I don’t I don’t need this, so

De’Vannon: It sounds very Cairney to me like we in real extra. And so I was wondering if she was being a little alarmist with, with running to you. I mean, if somebody like touches your arm, now, if he did other stuff to other people and maybe he was just giving weird vibes then. Sure. Okay. Yeah. Maybe, but just for him.

Jerry: but that was like, but didn’t know, it wasn’t just like touching. It was like repeated touching and like caressing and playing with her arm and stuff like that. And it’s like, it’s like, dude, she has a boyfriend and I don’t know why you think she’s like suit so no, 

De’Vannon: Okay. So the 

Jerry: access to that.


De’Vannon: okay. So yeah. Okay. He’s already [00:25:00] taken and he knows that he’s flirting. I can, okay. I can see that. I can see that, but I’m all for the me too movement and everything like that, but I don’t, but also, I, you know, guys have a voice too, so I was just playing devil’s advocate.

Jerry: no. That’s fair. I mean, look there’s yeah. I mean, there’s this, there’s this really weird, like pendulum swinging the other way. Right? Where it’s. Guys ask girls out, maybe it’s clumsy and then Verde must, they just get really into lockdown. Right. They’re just like, oh, how dare you? You know, don’t do that again.

And then, you know, all these guys are like, oh, sorry. You know, and then they just kind of stay on the sideline. Cause they’re just afraid to get rejected or they’re afraid to get criticism. And then all of these women are like, why am I forwarding still single. So, cause he already shamed all the guys from asking you well, right.

If it wasn’t, Hey, thank you for the courage. You know, to ask me out on flat earth, I’m not interested. And you know, here’s some things that you could do differently to maybe increase your chances of success. Keep trying, you know, keep [00:26:00] going. Right? Like you don’t hear that. And in a church setting, right?

Like they assume worst case scenario, and then don’t get me wrong. There’s plenty of predators. You have to, you have to suss out, but it’s just sometimes, you know, the, the net doesn’t catch everything correctly. Right. Sometimes he set off the wrong trip wires and you’re just like labeled as like a predator or a creeper when really people are just needing a little more practice. 

De’Vannon: What I hear you saying, Jerry is because these women were bitches and they had a negative hath attitude about being approached by men since that’s what they sent out. That’s what they received back and. 

Jerry: That’s fair. 

De’Vannon: It makes sense that one of my glasses I got from a bar and here it says, Karma’s only the ditch of you are

Jerry: Oh, that’s a canola that you bought it, man. That’s worth keeping her. 

De’Vannon: go ahead and buy it. They do when you get there’s a certain tab tap bar here that you go[00:27:00] and you get like dollar beers or whatever you to get, to keep the fucking glasses on certain nights. So I guess in a way I did buy it. But yeah I want to dwell on that for a second because you know, women, you know, even from back in my days when I was trying to make myself be straight, cause the church told me that I was going to hell for not being straight.

And I would like try to flip her goals and everything. I was met with a lot of fucking attitude, a lot of indifference, never anything like what you was just saying, like, you know, thankfulness and stuff like that. It reminds me of how straight guys can be when they are, when they get around gay guys.

And they just think everyday guy wants to fuck them, you know, for whatever fucking arbitrary reason a lot of women have this attitude. Like I’m a God, every man wants to just bother me. And I’m like, God, why is he talking to me and straight guys at the same fucking shit. So why do you think that is, is this like pride, arrogance, fear?

You know, what, why did, why do some straight men feel so like icky [00:28:00] about being around gay guys? How some women can get that same indifference towards a straight man. If he tries to talk to her.

Jerry: I think it’s just a, I think it’s just a lack of knowledge. Like. And just an unwillingness to be curious and humble and learn something, right? Like when I’ll use the set of questions, just to kind of illustrate the things to some of the discrepancies and thinking in the church, because I, you know, in pharmacy school, one of my classmates is gay and, you know, you would continually complain about the Christmasy considered fundamentalists.

Like, you know, now we’re in our class and it’s like, you know, who is the expert on sex? And it’s like Christians because, you know, God created sex and we studied the Bible. So therefore we are the experts on sex. Who is the expert on homosexuality, homosexuals, no Christians. Right? Because like the Bible is true.

And what Paul says about homosexual offenders is true. And therefore Christians are the experts on homosexuality, even though they aren’t, [00:29:00] they haven’t done anything to study it. They haven’t done anything, poor relationships with actual homosexuals. And so, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s it’s yeah, this is what I’m dealing with.

Right. Where they just think they’re, they know better. When they’re in situations where they don’t want to actually evaluate those beliefs and why those are true, or who justified those to begin with. Right. And it’s like, why don’t you actually talk to a gay person to actually learn about their perspective and things?

And you know, it, you know, the situation gets muddled quickly. Cause you know, one of my Christian pharmacist, friends, his brother is gay and you know, he continually prays for his, into repents and of his lifestyle. And I’m just like, well, you know, I it’s, I, I have no skin in this game. You know, if this is the, if this is what she want me to try for, Hey, you’re my friend.

Okay. But you know, this is, this is what I’m dealing with. Right. Whereas like people, this is the story people are telling us about, about homosexuality. Right. And [00:30:00] so instead of maybe having more empathy and actually exploring, and actually maybe getting some points like, Hey, you know what, all these things.

 Are actually unwarranted and actually actually have a, a reasonable platonic relationship with someone who doesn’t think like me or look like me or talk like me. It is, oh, I’d rather hang on to these spirits. Because if I, I don’t want to admit that if I might be wrong, then I might feel incompetent.

Right. I don’t want to admit that I am a, a bigot or a prejudice person or things like that. Even though I’m happy to, I know I’m happy to do that. I know I have my share prejudices, right. Like when my mom tells me growing up, she’s like, Jerry don’t date, a black girl, like it’s just not worth the headache.

And it’s just like, okay, thanks, mom. You know one of my best friends from high school, who’s white and you know, he’s the strong Christian, you know, what is the like, consistent with those beliefs? And he tells me because yeah, you know, I grew up in an efficient home. I, I don’t doubt, you know, my parents are, are Christian, but she would disown me if I took a black girl. So things like this. [00:31:00]

De’Vannon: Well shit, the Felicia. And this Shenique was, and all of them have not done black girls any favors, by the way, they’ve acted. However, there’s no reason to clump them all together and act like every black girl in the world is going to be a handful. She will be strong. She will be outspoken. But if that, and that, then that turns a lot of men on, you know, not every man bonds, the problem with that.

And so, so, 

Jerry: Sure. 

De’Vannon: so if you can’t even handle a black girl, then just don’t fuck with her, but that doesn’t something wrong with her because she’s bold. I’m not talking about the rude bitch hanging out at the gas station and all of that, because I say that because I had this happen to me, I was just checking out gas or whatever.

And this black girl walks out and he just reaches for whatever. She could find a pack of gum here, buy me this. I don’t know her. 

Jerry: Yeah. 

De’Vannon: I talked to a black girl. No, go ahead. [00:32:00] Yeah. I tried to talk to a black girl at this club in San Antonio when I was in the military. And I was like, Hey, how you doing? You know, what’s up?

My, she grabbed my hand too, though. What’s your name? Did you have a job? You have this speed that, you know, how much you make, you have a house. Do you have a car? That was the first words out of her mouth. She was like, okay, good. Talk to me. Okay. I don’t know what happened to her to put her on guard like that, but, you know, that’s, that’s the experience that I had.


Jerry: Amazing. 

De’Vannon: so my hats go off to your gay pharmacist friend for open the library and reading your class for film, because fundamentalists be they fundamentalists who settled in the Supreme court of our United States or anywhere close minded, rigid rules, bearing people. But the Lord said that people were not made for rules and that rules were made for people like evidence in the Bible.

Like when David was in the process of getting his kingdom and he goes through and he eats the bread from the pre. That’s [00:33:00] strictly for bedding. You know, Jesus is alive. You know what? I don’t have a problem with that. You know, exceptions can be made. It’s not all about the rules, rules, or general guidance, and God is willing to break his own rules at times.

So who the fuck are we? His people to be like, rules, rules, rules. Them’s the rules. We can’t break them. We can’t shake them. Or there will be hell to pay. That’s not God speaking. There’s people speaking. 

Jerry: That’s control speaking. You’re right. 

De’Vannon: It’s all kinds of things. Speaking hate insecurity and stuff like that. But, you know, I can’t do anything about.

Bullshit as people like that, but I can do is educate people so that they can see this and then make a decision. They can see the bullshit and other people didn’t make a decision to run away, but that’s all you can do. There is no arguing. I don’t argue with Trump supporters. I don’t argue with anti-vaxxers.

I don’t argue with, with people who think January 6th, was it an [00:34:00] insurrection? I just go, okay. That’s what you think. Buying,

Jerry: Yeah. Just disengaged. This just doesn’t help. 

De’Vannon: buying, and buy Felicia. Bye Felicia. So speaking of crazy bitches, were there any Karen’s in this organization, in your congregation that you ever had to deal with?

Jerry: Oh, there’s no shortage of them. And they’re like, there is one, I will call her Katie. So Katie it’s like, it’s kind, kinda like, they’ve just resolved to be unhappy. With everything. Like she continually complained about our classes and I think guys are too passive. They’re not asking any of us out. And we’re just like, but then you shoot them down when they do.

And they’re like, well, they should still ask us that. And you know, just people aren’t showing up the depth events and all this other things, you know, we didn’t have a good enough turnout here. And it’s like just the self fulfilling prophecy. And then later when the class full and she was like, I was right.

Like I was right. Like, you know, it, wasn’t going to hold. And it’s like, so what if you were. You [00:35:00] know, you, you, you spoken into existence and plus people don’t want to stick around in a class where you’re like, people are complaining all the time. It’s like, yeah, of course. That’s the, that’s the negative energy surrounds me that.

And I’ll admit, you know, I, I was a pessimist and that scared people away. Right. And I’m like, yeah, this class probably won’t last more than a year after a while. And they’re like, ah, well, if that’s the case, they know why would I stick around? And it’s like, oops, I shouldn’t have said that. Right. So yeah, things like that, but yeah, between all of the random curve balls, and then it’s a volunteer organization, right.

People can leave whenever they want. They don’t even need to give you two weeks, notice that they’re not going to leave the class. And if they’re going to leave the class, then need to tell you anything. And given just how conflict diverse. So many people were in the class, a bunch of them just started the next to this without me knowing.

And the next thing you know, it’s like, wow, why is that class down to like 15 people? It’s like, oh, you know, so. Lots of lots of the fun stuff on top of dealing with more predators. So to make sure your audience gets their money’s worth, I’ll share another [00:36:00] fun story of of singles ministry shenanigans.

So in a different class, not mine, but this is still worth listening to at one point the teacher of this class is, you know, he’s doing, going through his lesson and in the middle and about his two o’clock, he sees a guy. Like come up to a girl, sitting at the table and like lay a dozen roses, like in front of her, like on the table, in front of her.

And he’s just doing his best just to maintain composure and just finish the lesson. Because as soon as this guy put the roses down, all the male leadership started talking in the class. All the women leadership in the class started talking. And as soon as the class concluded, like all the guys, pretty much four of them, like a wall around the sky and they score them out of the class, not the girls, you know, form their own, like protect the circle around the woman to escort her out.

And you know, this is the kind of thing that we’re dealing with, right? Because you have either you have a version to rejection [00:37:00] or you have people that have the courage, but don’t know how to express it in a healthy way in terms of trying to get across attention. And then you have everything else in between that, you know?

Yeah. They just scrutinized like clumsy things like this and just like, oh no. Nope. If it’s awkward or if it’s creepy. Okay. Either way, we’re just gonna have. Flush it so today’s like this.

De’Vannon: And you say that is that same mentality. The church don’t know how to mind their own damn business is why. You know, we have like the anti-abortion laws and shit that y’all have there in Texas. Now, if that same foundation of thinking like we, the church must get involved in every detail of someone’s life, because we clearly know better than they do now on that day, they could have just chosen to do nothing and let the events play out, you know?

But then again, if they don’t want the staff, people drinking, when they’re not around then shit. I mean, certainly anything that in front of them must be [00:38:00] dealt with. I mean, this is a George Orwell situation, you know, Big brothers, not only watching you, then she’s just there all the time. Everywhere you go.

Jerry: yeah. 

De’Vannon: I mean, did they let, did they let the staff members masturbate

Jerry: I don’t know. 

De’Vannon: there are no rules against jacking off and all of that.

Jerry: I you know, I, I don’t know what those rules are, so I’m not gonna pretend to know on that.

note, I will say this much though, because this is, this is when I can expound on, well, it’s just, there was a point when a, another guy that in the church offered to mentor me and, you know, I was at a point in my life while I was just open to new instruction because I was between jobs and he kept talking and I’m just like, okay, you know, we, you know, roll the dice.

Let’s see what this guy has to say. And at one point, yeah, that’s exactly what you said. It was like, he would tell me, he goes, you know drinking is bad, don’t do it like that’s bad, but then he would tell me he would actually encourage me to mask. ’cause he’s like you’re [00:39:00] single and God designed you this way.

And if you don’t have a wife, then you still need, you know, you still gotta, you know, unload your gun or whatever. And I’m just kinda like, well, he’s like, look, man, you know, my wife had a hysterectomy and she’s hardly ever in the mood. And so, you know, you don’t want to sit outside of that. So this is like, you know, damage control.

And then just to top it all off, he’s like, Jerry, Luke makes all the difference and I’m like, oh, okay. I need to hang up the phone. I need to hang up the phone. Okay. 

De’Vannon: He’s talking to you like a teenager just starting out life.

Jerry: Pretty much. Yeah. Like he, it was just like I’m, I was 30. I was in my thirties when he offered to mentor me. And it’s like, why are you talking to me? Like, I don’t know any better, you know? It’s like, and then you wonder why. Want to hang around, hang around you anymore or learn from you anymore. Like is his big chip on his shoulder was telling me that evolution is a theory from the devil and I had to embrace slate [00:40:00] young earth creationism, because that was the correct interpretation of how this tend to be. 

De’Vannon: Oh my God. There’s so much happening there. I appreciate, I appreciate his, how comfortable he was to talk about everything. However, I think he went too far. Cause he sounds kind of like a conspiracy theorist kind of person. I, you see church is not supposed to be stressful. You know, you’re supposed to be able to go to church, have a positive communal experience, worshiping whatever God you believe in volunteer and help out.

If you will help the board and do whatever and then go the fuck home, worried about who’s fucking who who’s jacking off and who’s not who’s drinking and who’s not. That’s when you go into far, you become an extra, you know, this is the thing that has turned people off from churches, you know, and while people don’t don’t care to go anymore.

 And [00:41:00] so that this have any sort of impact and these, these negative things that you saw at church have any sort of impact on your own personal spiritual law.

Jerry: of course, you know, I, I, you know, I was a kid who was insecure and just wanted the place to belong. Right. I mean, that’s kind of what led me to the church to begin with. You know, I had a set of friends in high school. I thought they would be friends for life. And then, you know, after a falling out, I’m just like, ah, you know, and I’ll admit, you know, high school problems are so small, but you know, my world and friends were everything approval was everything.

And so when Karen, you know, reaches out to me, it’s invite me to church camp and, you know, church camp is. High school, church camp is just like, yeah, it’s just peer pressure basically. Right? This is just like all these cute girls crying, asking you to come to know Jesus. And you’re just like, well, God, I, that means all these girls will like, you know, becoming a Christian.

Yeah, of course. And I mean, I knew enough in my life where to say, Hey, you know what? I’m not in [00:42:00] control. Like I thought I was, and maybe you know, Jesus is the one who can offer the forgiveness love and forgotten and guidance that I’d find that I needed. And so, yeah, when you see, you know, this approval addiction transfer into the church where they’re like, okay, well, if you’re really a Christian, you have to jump through hoops, a, B, and C, then, you know, go on a mission trip, you got to lead a small group, you got to, you know, tie, you know, don’t just tie 10 to 15%.

Right. And it’s just this continuous cycle of wanting. And it wasn’t until I went to Beirut, you know, six years ago, When I got to see a form of Christianity that really actually kind of reset her perspective and really inspired me to, to go down a different path because you know, I’m hanging out with Arabic Christian doctors, you know, sponsoring in clinics in areas like Damascus and Mosul in South Sudan.

And, you know, they believe, Hey, yeah, we’re, we’re not here to say Islam is wrong. Here to just show them [00:43:00] how, you know, the love of Jesus Christ can literally heal them. And, you know, I’m just like, I see their patients and to see the persistence, Tennessee, the gentleness. And I said, you know what? I like the way these people interpret the Bible and how they carry themselves as the perfect note.

Like there’s so many things, you know, when you’re dealing with people, there’s politics and there’s all sorts of fighting and things like that. But, but they have a unity and a commitment to each other that I didn’t find, you know, in the consumeristic capitalist church we normally see here. Right. So, yeah, I mean, I, I’m scarred from burnout volunteerism and you know, I’m being very, very cautious now as to when someone says, oh, you have skills.

So we need them to help our platform. It’s like, okay, well, hang on. Is this is this really aligned with my biggest priorities and to be able to say no, and for them to really, you know, if they give me more flack than it’s all the more recent to say no, but [00:44:00] if they say, Hey, we understand, it’s like, okay, now what if we can say no to each other in the church and not have follow up then?

Yeah. Maybe there’s maybe there’s some chance for growth there.

De’Vannon: Seeing, what you got is a different perspective. You got a new perspective and when you compare it to two, you felt more love and simplicity people in the other country. See Jesus simply said that if I be lifted up, I would draw all men onto me, you know, in terms of soul-winning and stuff like that in Charlotte.

And in getting people to convert it, humans don’t have the power to convert anybody, you know, only God. And only thing Jesus said was to talk about him. Like when Jesus was here, he said that he, he only gave praises to his father, you know, do this command of us to just praise him. Then he will do the actual drawing.

So there is nowhere that nobody’s Bible the way of share, not unless somebody came up with some bullshit, you [00:45:00] know, that commands us to pray for the faults of other people, because. I, you know, I can’t imagine going before the Lord and being like, Jesus, I’m good. I’m good to dope, but can you fix that bitch over there?

Because they are fucked up, you know, that don’t work that way.

Jerry: well, that’s exactly what the story, you know, with the test collector and the, and the other guy, right. He’s just like, thank you that you didn’t make me like this person, like, thank you for making me Austin. And you guys just like, God have mercy on me. I’m a sinner. And it’s like, yeah, I like that prayer. I like that prayer better than that one.


De’Vannon: The Lord said he warned people about hypocrisy in it, and there’s a tendency in people to hone in on the faults of the perceived faults of somebody else. And they’re in the Lord warns it’s about this. And you had so many people fall down this volunteer, this rabbit hole. You said you cannot pray for, for, for a trickle in your eye, you know, trickling a trickle of fault and somebody else when you [00:46:00] have basically a whole waterfall of fault in your own, because you can’t see clearly what’s going on in yourself.

The lower call is calling us to focus on ourselves and not other people. And the arrogance of thinking that you can read through the Bible and find out what’s wrong with somebody else is baffling and is not the point, the point of the Bible so that you can read through it and find out what’s wrong with you and what you can fix and how you can help the world.

Not what’s fucked up with other people and how you can dominate other people. But again, we can’t fix the bitches like that, but we can talk about this shit so that people don’t let people Boston around and work them over and calling themselves do it and doing it in the name of the Lord. No, ma’am not today.

Satan. You mentioned before, how people you see, you saw men trying to use scripture to coerce their wives into having sex. Talk to me about how you saw men in this church, [00:47:00] twisting scripture to their advantage sexual.

Jerry: Well, I mean, yeah, you can, we can look at the passage in Ephesians friend. They’re just like wives. You’re supposed to submit to your husbands. Like I have the title and you need to respect the title. Right. So give me what I want when I was. ’cause, you know, you, that’s what you signed up for when you married me.

Right. You know, yeah. It’s kind of back to the passage that in first Corinthians you know, that my, you know, my former quote mentor, you know, said this to me, he’s just like, look, they said, everything is permissible to me. You know, God made us a certain way, you know, got me the stomach, you know, food is for the stomach and the stomach is for food, you know, things like this.

Right. And yeah, I mean, at one point the Bible people would use biblical passages to justify slavery. Right. And it’s like, how is that? Okay. Right. All sorts of injustices and, you know, ideally we’d like to think that Christians would be, you know, repentance and self-correcting in a way, but [00:48:00] we also have plenty of people who insist that no, what was true then is true now.

And okay. No, you still need to have that keep going. And so, yeah, I mean, basically right. Anytime there’s any level of coercion, that’s no longer love. Like we talk about marriage being the most sacrificial relationship is supposed to be. So if you know, you want her to do something that she’s not comfortable doing it for you to twist her arm and say, well, you don’t really love it, then it’s like, no, that’s, that’s not loving.

That’s not sacrificial. Right. But it happens all the time. 

De’Vannon: All kinds. Of course it happens all the time. And again, The encouragement he has for people to come to know God or themselves to read through the Bible in its original languages, which you don’t even have to buy the thick accordances like I have, now you can just Google, you know, what does this passage say in its original text and then kind of interpreted from there?

 Yeah, we, we just cannot trust preachers and pastors to tell us the truth. [00:49:00] I ain’t saying they all lie, but I’m saying like your eternal life and your happiness on this earth should not lie upon the worst somebody else 

 When you have this knowledge at your fingertips. So let us be mindful of why we’re going to church.

What we’re really getting out of it. If the shit is real, was there, was there ever a point that you felt like your time in new during this search that you stepped back and looked at it and thought this isn’t real, or this is fake or this is bullshit or anything 

Jerry: I’ll be happy to the moment where I had to kind of really like struggle to process what was going on was actually in 2016 during the political race. Right. After I say those people will know exactly what church I’m going to, but at one point they had, they, they were doing like, you know, real people, a real, you know, real Christians like interviews.

And it was just like celebrities, like at one point they interviewed Andy Peck. Right. And, you know, everyone was like, oh yeah, these scripts, when I was wondering, like I had to ask myself, where was I? They’re like, [00:50:00] all right, we’re going. The next step, we’re going to talk to Ted Cruz. People just stood like standing.

Oh. And I’m just like, where, where am I? Like, what’s going on? I thought that?

was in church. You know? So yeah, that was, that was the moment when I said, you know what, maybe I need something else. 

De’Vannon: Well shared all you had to do with mentioned canned Coon crews and, you know,

Jerry: Can king cruisy up? That’s that this would be a bumper sticker people get to me. 

De’Vannon: okay, well, let’s shift gears from the time you spent in hell. And and and tell me the one who talk about, because in the last interview you mentioned something about xenophobia being like a thing. And then I, when I lived in Houston, I think I only rode through through Chinatown, like a couple of times and things like that.

 T tell me what, what bad things do you see [00:51:00] happening to the Asian community there?

Jerry: I mean, it’s mainly on the political activist side that, you know, you start to see these things and you don’t want, it’s tough when a conflict averse, you know race doesn’t want to deal with these things. Cause they’re like, well, you know, we don’t like these injustices, but we’re not sure what we can do to stand up to them.

So some of the things that OCA has mentioned, right. One is like higher scrutiny levels for verification of IDs. How like voting booths, right. They’re just like, are you, are you really a citizen? And it’s like, yeah, here’s my paperwork. Well, you know, I don’t know. And so like they stall the process, right?

Because they’re, they want to, they’ve already taken a stance of. Even though there’s more than enough evidence to show that this person is legit citizen. Right. She used this Chinatown itself is built on discrimination. Right? They, at one point all the city officials sequestered all the agents to the Southwest part of the city.

And then they, they dropped the voting district in such a way that the agents don’t even have their own vote. Like they split up the region that they were living in. So they couldn’t have any political [00:52:00] leverage. So yeah, like Houston has built you know, with these things in place because there’s this, you know, fear of yellow peril or whatever else they say, well, you know, we’re in control and we don’t want other people to have the chance that, you know, taking away our kingdom.

So let’s make sure that we leveraged the correct things. And I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s on several levels. And one of the stories that I haven’t shared as much, but I think it’s Especially funny. At one point I was. Babysitting at a pharmacy, my company had acquired in like a ghetto part of Houston.

It’s like beach that and Woodcrest, not a great area to help. Right. And so the previous owner had barely kept the lights on and the bills paid by moving like cash scripts, like shady scripts from clinics that were not looking for legitimate medical needs to issue prescriptions. Like they were just moving, you know, they were issuing like hydrocodone on Soma Xanax, you know, the Trinity as, as a set on the street just to make money.

And so this black guy randomly comes in and asked me for purple drank. He’s like, Hey, [00:53:00]he’s like, yo man, you got problem with, with coding. And I honestly did it, like we, he only had the project code on, someone sent us the no, you know, no cough syrup. And I’m like, sorry man. Nope. He was like, all right. And then right as he’s about to walk out the door, he goes.

I knew that was crass, but I don’t want to get stabbed. So I’m just going to let that go. But you know, like how are we supposed to find a bigger battle when we’re like, all the minorities are still like, you know, dealing with each other’s prejudices, so, yeah,

De’Vannon: Especially in a city like Houston, you know, you were right there by the border of Mexico. You didn’t have all the black people, Browns people, all the night’s hues of everything. That’s not white, nothing against white, you know, white people are great, you know, fuck Republicans. We’ll give a shit. Fuck Republicans.

 And and so, but you have such a, you know, a lot of places like to say they’re a [00:54:00] melting pot and so diverse and blah, blah, blah, like everywhere says that, but Houston, here’s a different son of a bitch. Like you had a lot of shit going on in Houston and turn that the options there. When I was a recruiter in Southern California, one of my high in an air force recruiter in Southern California, one of the high schools that I recruited from, they had like racial wars against the black people in the Mexican people 

Jerry: Oh, wow. 

De’Vannon: get together and fuck up the white people.

If any kind of fight has to happen, why are you letting like there, the white people sat there and watched the two P races that they don’t like anyway, fuck each other up. And they’re sitting there. You told you about them, black people in the Mexican people.

Jerry: Yeah, yeah. Right. They just they’re like why we don’t have to kick them out. They’re just, we’re letting them just story each other. Yeah, exactly. 

De’Vannon: In my lifetime, black people have been the people who’ve given me the hardest time. Honestly, in the most brief, it’s actually been white people who have been my champions. 

Jerry: Wow. 

De’Vannon: [00:55:00] You never know where you’re going to find allies and friends. I’ve been you know, black, black people tend to get a lot of very envious of me because I don’t talk like I’m from the hood.

Even though I am from the hood, I’ve never carried myself. Like I’m from the hood. You know, I’ve always carried myself like, like in princess, Diana or some shit, and they just couldn’t deal with it. And that’s where that comes from. But that relates to people who have successful and powerful. And so doors open for me because of my demeanor and because I know how to talk to people and respect people and not judge them and jump to conclusions before I meet them.

 Tom, talk to me about, you mentioned the gerrymandering of voting districts and he told me about what issues the Asians are having access to voting.

Jerry: it’s just more of like a, like, it’s just like all these deterrents in place. Right. They, you know, To have a seat at the table, right. Like in terms of like management jobs and, you know, upper level CEO jobs and things like that. And so in terms of legislature, right? [00:56:00] Yeah. Maybe, maybe the taxes are higher or I have to do some more research on this, but you know, maybe the taxes are higher in certain areas.

Right. That’s why people tease about all the Asians going to Bellaire high school. Cause it’s like, you know, the most affordable public high school and most reputable of all the public high schools there. Right. And so yeah, there’s this notion of, of, yeah. What kind of reputation do they have? Right.

They’re like, okay. The Asians only live in like sugar land or, you know, like safe part of town. Right. And yeah, it’s just more about. Yeah, I’m just trying to think of an example of where there was like blatant evidence that they’re just trying to crowd out Asians, thankfully, you know, in Houston, because it’s a multicultural city, you don’t see that as much, but like New York was multicultural, but I’ll hate crimes happen there.

Atlanta has a good chunk of patients as well. And you know, that’s where the hate crimes happen. So yeah, I mean, I’d have to ask my friends at OCA to see, Hey, what exactly are you seeing in Houston? That’s [00:57:00] really still a problem. But I mean, the ongoing things are still there. As long as we have a preconception that we’re just like this model minority, that’s just going to do our part to get along and not ruffle feathers, even when we’re being slandered or, or worse than, you know, it, it’s just going to be an uphill battle all the time. 

De’Vannon: And it sucks, a girl living in a red state, your gimpy as the governor and nothing against handicap people, but he deserves the insult. I would never ever refer to somebody in a wheelchair that way, other than the government, governor, Greg Abbott, he’s the only person I would ever be like that gimpy bitch.

Other than that, I’d be like, just talk. I just talked to handicap people like regular folks, so they don’t need to be reduced or diminished. They’re capable of. And they have strong bodies otherwise, other than what part of them is handicap, but that stupid son of a bitch deserves all the insults bestowed upon him.

Jerry: yeah, 

De’Vannon: But since the Corona virus has [00:58:00] started, you know, we’ve seen xenophobia in this country in particular, you know, and other kinds too, but in this country in particular rise,

Jerry: yeah, yeah. 

De’Vannon: it is still just speaks back to like the fears people have in church. They don’t know where the fuck it’s coming from, who just, they were bad. Every gay man wants to fuck a child. The Asian people are just bad. They created the Corona virus and all the Mexican people want to come here and take our jobs and all the immigrants, you know, I’m just gonna let you, our closing thoughts and words here.

I want you to speak to us about the general xenophobia since the Corona virus is starting. And does this distances, I don’t even know, like this is this sort of thing is like, so like upsetting to me, the amount of energy and force people put behind destruction. When, if we would take that same amount of energy and put it towards [00:59:00] building each other up, we will be so much further along.

I don’t know. Just talk Jerry. I mean, shut 

Jerry: Sure sure. Yeah, no, that’s from, you know, the, from what I’ve observed when Coronas started to first get big, you know, and it was unfortunate that, you know, leadership set a really bad example. Right. I remember the clip that did it for me was when I happened to watch a clip of Donald Trump talking about the China virus and then you know, the reporter acid, you know, why do you keep calling it the China virus?

And he goes, because it’s from China. And I’m like, oh no, I don’t need another four years at this guy. Like I don’t, you know? And so, you know, when leadership is setting the tone, right. And people will justify bad behavior because they’re like, well, if he can do it, then I get to do that too. Right. And people are like, yeah, you know, Trump is awesome.

And it’s like, but for whom. [01:00:00] All of a sudden, if you’re an immigrant, you’re scared. Right? A lot of hate crimes were inspired by the fact that Trump tips saying to send them back, right? Whether it’s Mexicans, senators that were actually born here, you know, that are actually citizens. They’re like send them back.

And it’s like, wow, that took me. You know, that was the flashbacks to my fourth grade, you know, playground TIFF with this girl, who’s like, get back to Japan where you belong. And it’s like, frig. Like, why do I need to go back to Japan? Like I’m Taiwanese. I was born here, I’m a citizen. I don’t know why I need to go back to Japan.

But you know, not the first time in Asian has dealt with you know, slander. So I’m not here to make myself a diva or a narcissistic or anything, but this is what do you do with that? Right? And so between the Corona virus being handled poorly, because people are not being locked down or sequestered or, or recognizing that they need to maybe put aside their needs and preferences for a greater.

Right. If everyone would be able to say, Hey, you know what, I could go [01:01:00] out, but I’m going to stay in. Right. Because it’s just, I don’t want to risk that. And what’s funny is so one of my pharmacist, friends who is half, has to be a Republican, would go back and forth on me with this. I was originally supposed to fly to see family, like tomorrow.

I was supposed to take a week off and you’re going to go to this Hennessy and visit family and other things. And I said, you know what? I’m a crime is spiking. You know, let’s just wait a couple months until things kind of quiet down. And I was sad to cancel my ticket, but I knew they were right. Right.

Like, I mean, I could have rolled the Dyson. I mean, my friend would tell me, he’s like, well, look, you know, I’m a crime, not fatal. Like you, you know, you can still keep doing what you want to do. And it’s like, Even if it’s not, why would you want to overload? You know, hospitals are already overwhelmed with Corona patients, right?

Like I could have gone. I believe me, I was sorely tempted, new year’s Eve. I knew there was a salsa dancing party on new year’s Eve. And I’m like, I cannot believe I’m going to pass this up.

because [01:02:00] safety and also bigger fish to fry. Like I needed time to reflect on the year I needed to plan out this year so I could continue to call my business.

So as much as anyone could have justified me going to go salsa, dancing to celebrate today, Jerry live a little, it’s like, yes. And I’m going to turn that down so I can focus on things and stay safe. You. And so I hope we get to that point where people say, Hey, you know what I decisions are mine. I can do what I want technically.

Right. My choices are mine. Mine is mine. And I’m going to choose that. Maybe I’m going to elevate society’s needs to put my own precious. And yeah, like there are people here with the scarcity and they have the scarcity mindset, right. They’re just like, oh no, you know, all these other people are gonna take the jobs, even though we came here for a better life we don’t want other people doing the same thing we do.

Right. As a, as one person, I I read who put it, he goes, America is the country built by immigrants. That has a very complicated relationship with immigrants. [01:03:00] And I think but that’s exactly it. Right. So yeah, all that to say, Right.

How can we think, you know, kind of the whole point of this Christianity thing, right?

How can we put others’ needs above our own so that we can all benefit and all, maybe get to a point where things are, are civil and people can be safe and be seen with respect to, without fear of retribution or slander or undercutting or anything like that. 

De’Vannon: I’m not even saying nothing else because I didn’t read enough bishops fulfill on this interview. So what I’m going to do is close the doors to the library. Oh, but it, it will be reopened again trust, but that the way Jerry phrase, all of that sums everything up nicely. I’m going to leave it at that. His website is adopting leaders, not calm.

And, and all of this is going to go in the show [01:04:00] notes, all of, all of his contact information, everything like that. And Jerry, I think you were fantastic coach. I think you have fantastic, genuine insight coming from your lived experiences. And so I highly recommend you. Were those your closing words or was there any last thing you wanted to say.

Jerry: Thank you for your support van. Like, Hey guys, I just want to shout out to him right now. He’s one of the first people to buy myself, study conflict module. So I wanted to say.

thank you like you, you’re not just supporting me through, Hey, like have get some visibility. It’s like, Hey man, I want to cover, I want to help you pay your bills and get skipped this business off the ground.

So grateful for your friendship and your support. So yeah, let’s keep talking for sure. 

De’Vannon: Money talks. Bullshit walks. 

Jerry: There you go. 

De’Vannon: All right. Tell next time. 

Jerry: The next time.

De’Vannon: Thank you all so much for taking time to [01:05:00] listen to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at sex, drugs, and jesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.

My name is De’Vannon and it’s been wonderful being your host today and just remember that everything is going to be all right.


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