Episode #60: Stigmas Surrounding Mental Health, Rekt Religions & An Alternative View Of The Bible With Erik & Marc, Hosts – From Survivor To Thriver Podcast



Co-hosts Erik DaRosa and Marc Fernandes are upending the front-end of mental health conversations. Each week, they tackle different mental health topics through honest and relatable “kitchen table” conversations with real people who are helping to shatter mental health stigmas and find their voices. We aim to normalize discussions around mental health topics and remind our audience they are not alone, there is strength in community and “it’s perfectly ok to not always be ok.”


Our podcast is more than just a podcast. It is a 𝗠𝗢𝗩𝗘𝗠𝗘𝗡𝗧 aimed at shattering all mental health stigmas! Each week we tackle different mental health topics through honest and relatable “kitchen table” conversations with real people who are helping to normalize mental health discussions and find their own voices. Podcast is conversation based; no set list of questions.


From Erik: 


I have long imagined a world where we can all speak openly and honestly about our mental health journeys without fear of judgment or reprisal. Our show is for folks who are suffering, often in silence, to know that they are not alone in their struggles, that help is available in many different forms and that there are brave spaces, such as ours, where they can both hear stories of others and share their own.  


For as long as I can remember, I have been “okay” according to society’s definition. Yet, I’ve experienced everything from the fear of sleeping as a young child, to the onset of terrifying obsessive thoughts as an adolescent, to the ever-worsening panic attacks and paralyzing anxiety throughout my high school and college years. This all culminated in two debilitating dissociative episodes as an adult. To this day, I have no recollection of two lost weekends – the first in summer 2004 and the second in fall 2006. My most recent episode occurred in October of 2021 and resulted in a renewed healing journey consisting of both Western and Eastern treatment modalities. 
For some reason, I did everything to hide my “not okay-ness” from the world. After years of therapy and a highly effective regime of medications, there were still times that I chose the path of least resistance, the same path that far too many people choose: to suffer in silence. For decades I outwardly displayed a facade, that of a usually smiling, highly functioning, type-A successful overachiever. I had, subconsciously or not, chosen to accept society’s stigma rather than embrace my own vulnerability.

Stigma says we shouldn’t talk openly about these things. I say we should! Stigma also says we shouldn’t stand high upon the mountain top, vulnerable and transparent, for the entire world to see. I say we must!

Together, let’s work to break the stigma of mental illness and remind one another that it’s perfectly okay to not always be okay.  Collectively, and with a bit of patience, we’ll get through this, I promise.



INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to):


·      Stigmas Surrounding Mental Health

·      “Smiling” Depression

·      Agreeing To Disagree Without Finding Fault

·      Catholic Shade & Recovering Catholics 

·      A Unique Take On Judaism/Circumcision  

·      How The Church Has Replaced The Family Unit

·      How Church Rituals Are Addictive

·      How Much Family Do We Really Need?

·      Why Do You Believe What You Believe?

·      What Can We Glean From The Bible?




Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/erik.darosa.7

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/skisherpa/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erikdarosa/

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@fromsurvivortothriver




Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.com

YouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCM

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopix

Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannon

Email: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com





·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)


TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs


·      OverviewBible




·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)



·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levin



·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com

·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net




·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org

·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org





·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.







You’re listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De’Vannon and I’ll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what’s really going on in your life.

There is nothing off the table and we’ve got a lot to talk about. So let’s dive right into this episode.

De’Vannon: Hello. Y’all and welcome to episode 60 of the sex drugs in Jesus podcast. God bless you today. I’ve got with me Eric Darosa and Mark Fernandes. These guys are the hosts of the, from survivor to thriver podcast. And they’re here to have a hot steamy threeway with me today. Y’all and guess what? Each and every last one of y’all are invited.

Yas, come fuck with us today. [00:01:00] As we talk about the stigmas, the surrounding mental health, we’re gonna tell you what smiling depression is. We’re gonna throw some good old shade at the Catholic damn church, cuz they so deserve it. We’re gonna take a unique look at Judaism and circumcision.

We’re gonna talk about how the church has replaced a family unit

and how church rituals are as addictive as any other drug. I see you on the other side of this episode.

Hello? Hello. Hello. Hello each and every last one of you, beautiful motherfuckers out there, listening and looking and watching. My name is Danna and this is the sex drugs in Jesus podcast. Hallelujah, tabernacle and praise. I’ve got with me, the very sexy Eric Del Russa and the very Lindo and freaky Dey Mark Fernandez.

And they host the from [00:02:00] survivor to thriver podcast. How the fuck are you gentleman doing today? 

Erik: Happy fucking Friday morning, happy fucking Friday jazzed. Got my coffee feeling sexy. I’m not going to say one way or another. I may have some down under Lon, quick plug for you. Love it. How are you 

Marc: doing mark?

I, I I’m great. You know, I, I did think about the fact that it was called the sex drugs of Jesus podcast and wondered if I should do some drugs, but then I remembered you and I actually have a podcast recording later today. Yes. And I actually, I’m shocked. I’ve got like four things. So I was like, Ugh, I guess it’ll just be.

Sex in Jesus. We can talk about it though. you can, you can show the 

Erik: drugs that you have. I love how Danna has that little LT on Jesus, the way he says it. Well, 

Marc: that’s the intro, his podcast. That’s that’s sexy. Southern Christian speak, then that’s that’s what you do. [00:03:00] D’s like, wait, I’m the host. You guys shut the fuck up.

De’Vannon: no, we gotta let go and let flow baby. So we will, I mean, I don’t, I’m not the dominating one, you know, I like to be controlled and stuff like that. So if you too masculine men, what have your way with me, again, like you did before then I’m not gonna stop you just cut into my show. I have no ego in this game.

Marc: Is that a, is that the definition of a power bottom? Pretty much. Okay. 

Erik: and Mark’s the bear. I mean, for people watching, 

Marc: I’m not hairy enough. Like most of my hair is from the neck up. Like, see, that’s all I got on my chest. I’m not, it’s weird. Like I’m real bear from like here up and I’m completely I’m look, I’m completely.

No, you are the definition of, I am the, yeah, I’m 

Erik: completely shaved from the face all the way down to my toes. It started for biking and then just took on a life of its own. 

Marc: That’s what he says. You know, it’s funny. I heard you talking about like me as a freaky and I saw a very funny TikTok [00:04:00] the other day that Eric and I have recently started a TikTok channel for, from, to thriver.

And we suck at it. So I’ve been trying to like do research to get better at it. And for whatever reason, I must have watched something. And so I’m getting a ton of like swing talk is a huge thing, right? There’s all these like people in the lifestyle and this chick on there. And she was like, You know, there’s that moment when you always thought you were a freak and then you meet somebody who’s really a freak.

And then it’s like, fuck. And I was, I was thinking about it. I was like, yeah, I’ve always thought of myself as kind of freaky. And I’m like, yeah, probably more vanilla than I, you know, think I am though. Aren’t we all in some ways? 

De’Vannon: Well, I like to lick vanilla no, 

Marc: there you go. and chocolate I’m guessing 

De’Vannon: lately, but I was more like mocha vanilla for a really, really long time.

My, my, my current boyfriend is very black and very Trinidadian, but you know, I, I grew up out west and all [00:05:00] I had was, you know, the, you know, the Latinos and the white boys primarily. And so 

Marc: mean. If we’re gonna be honest, you are like latte. You’re not even quite mocha. You’re latte. You’re a latte there.

Beautiful skin color, but I’d put you like, I’m looking at mine. Yeah. You’re like a triple shot latte. This is a double shot. 

Erik: So you’re saying we could order to van and at Starbucks, if we wanted to 

De’Vannon: it’d be constantly. 

Marc: Yes. Well, I mean, shit like that. Stuff’s expensive anyway. It’s like, are you tall Grande or vente though?

That would be the question 

De’Vannon: vente all the way. If I’m gonna bother with it for years, I, I kicked my Starbucks addiction. I used to be there all the time. So let me see, I wanna give a shout out to pod match though, because that’s how I met Eric and mark pod match.com. I talk about it all the time. I just had Alex Sano on who was the creator of pod match.

He was my honorary guest for my 50th [00:06:00] episode, which came out yesterday and I met these two. Handsome devils here through pod match. And so pod match is making great lasting connections. Cuz I feel like I’m gonna be friends with these guys for the rest of my life and I have pod match to thank for that.

So God bless you, Alex, same Filippo, wherever your beautiful ass is out there in the world today. And so I wanna read a quote from y’all’s profile on pod match, which I feel like really hits at the epicenter and the heart of why you do your podcast. Y’all’s podcast is very mental health focus. I pretty much say this pretty much the, the, the reason why you do it.

And so you say, and I quote, stigma says we shouldn’t talk openly about these things. I say we should. Stigma also says we shouldn’t stand high on the mountaintop, vulnerable and transparent for the entire world to see. I say, we must into [00:07:00] quote. What would you guys like to say about that? 

Erik: So I guess I’ll yeah, mark explained to me I’m gonna take that, that, so that quote just to give a little backstory on the podcast, the whole podcast started.

I get off of a plane. I had been sunbathing on the island of Maui back in November of 2020 during the pandemic landed back in Colorado, looked up at a couple of the mountains around our house and saw all the snow and thought shit, this ski season, isn’t gonna be like any ski season we’ve had before the last one ended really strange.

And I don’t even know what this one’s gonna look like. And so I got home and didn’t really sleep all for a few nights was kind of going through my own funk. And I wrote what I wanted to be a blog piece. And in that blog piece, I wrote down at the sort of the end of it. That quote that you just read. And when I few, few weeks later went over to Mark’s [00:08:00] house, we were hanging out around his kitchen island where all of our great conversations tend to tend to take place, especially pre COVID Mark’s house.

The kitchen was the kitchen and dining room were always a place where lots of us gathered and hung out. And it was a really fun place to, to just catch up and exchange ideas. And, and so when I wrote that which eventually then turned into the idea for the podcast, it really is about, you know, standing up on top of a mountain here we are in Colorado, you know, and, and screaming at the, the top of our lungs.

Like I, you’re not alone. You I’m just like you broadcasting in essence to the world then, you know, with my tagline, it’s. It’s perfectly okay. To not always be okay rather than, you know, if I think of the juxtaposition kind of hanging out, down on the valley floor and whispering about mental health [00:09:00] issues, like we used to with cancer in the A’s epidemic and people living in silence and struggling in silence.

So that that’s really kind of the Genesis of where that whole thing 

Marc: came from. 

De’Vannon: You’re fucking right about that. Cause when I got HIV, I didn’t know anyone who I could reach out to. I felt like had it already. And so that’s the huge reason why I’m super transparent too, because sometimes I wonder, I wonder if when I got HIV, I would’ve known anyone else who had it.

If I wouldn’t have felt like I was the only one and I was gonna like Shivel up and die in eight months. 

Marc: Right. And I feel like, you know, if you look back at it, it’s running a similar course to that, right? Like we. You know, HIV only happened to people that were gay or with an, a alternative lifestyle in the early eighties.

Right. And then all of a sudden magic Johnson comes out and he’s like, yeah, I, I, I, I lay a ton of pipe and it’s ladies and I’m HIV positive. Right. That’s what happened. And then all of a sudden it’s normalized. But I do think, I do think [00:10:00] I’ve always sort of pushed more to the cancer side of that metaphor only because of this.

It is, it is this silent understood killer where like, when I very first came out, like people didn’t even know what it was. Right. Like we, you know, as a matter of fact, I feel like we could talk to a bunch of people who wouldn’t even still understand the difference between HIV positive and having full bone aids.

Right? Like they wouldn’t be able to kind of manufacture or understand that forest for the trees. And the mental health and cancer thing. When you start to talk to people, they actually know way more about it than you would think. Like, people are like, oh yeah, there’s depression, there’s anxiety. There’s bipolar.

There’s all these like little slices of it. Just like, people know, they’re like, oh, you’ve got this kind of cancer. Oh, you, you know, with some treatment it’ll suck, but you’ll probably be okay. And it’s like, that’s, those are the kinds of conversations I wanna have about mental health. And it’s not that [00:11:00] the HIV and aids Metaphor for it and sort of similarly isn’t accurate, but I’ve always gone to this physical versus mental thing.

I, I probably even mentioned that in your episode van, and like, I’m like, we should talk about this, like a, like a twisted ankle or a hurt knee. Like I, I have to go to the doctor. I need to talk to some people. I have to put a team around me. Like, no one, everyone would be like, oh yeah, I have a physical therapy appointment.

Right? No, one’s gonna like hide that. It’s like, no, I’m gonna see my therapist today. Today’s gonna be an easy visit. I’m actually feeling great. I might ask her about something or he about something completely random versus trying to like, you know, get to the depth of something. And it’s like, that should be okay.

De’Vannon: We have a lot of governments in media to blame for that stigma, because the way it was marketed and put out there, didn’t help. The religion you’re for sure. Right? Yep. You’re right. The religious judgment that came along with it targeted towards the non-straight community, didn’t help, but you know, certain people [00:12:00] shriveled up, people in Africa would flies all around them saying, you know, this is what aids 

Marc: looks like.

Yeah. You know, you’re absolutely fucking right. Yeah. I mean, or straight up just literally like, no, like, like gay people get that. Right. Like, you know, it wasn’t fair to him in some ways, even though I don’t appreciate, he was being such a Dick to Joe Rogan, but the quote that came out that Neil young recently, you know, talked about, you know, going to a grocery store and having a cashier with aids and, and you know, not wanting that around him.

It’s like, As shitty as that is, it’s like he was essentially responding to and often ways the temperature and sort of the thought process at the time, which by the way, like could not have been more accurate. I, I think I’ve actually shared it on the podcast before my godfather, you know, you wanna talk about sex drugs in Jesus?

I, I had a gay Catholic godfather and he unfortunately contracted HIV through a blood transfusion because he was being treated for cancer. And so everyone always assumed because of when [00:13:00]he contracted HIV, that it was absolutely through sexual transmission and it wasn’t.

De’Vannon: Well, people have a tendency to be fucking stupid. 

Marc: Oh. And look at the amen. 

Erik: they’re they’re you know, they’re doing the same shit now with TV commercials for medications, right? 

Marc: Oh my God. I, yeah, it’s funny. You said that like one came up last night. I was watching the hockey game and it was the one where like, if I, I, and I’m being really ignorant, but there is a drug that you could take and sometimes it, it causes like involuntary body movements.

Yes. To treat depression. And so then you take another drug. Yeah. And it’s like, yeah. Oh you, but you’ll be perfectly okay. After you do. It’s like, like that’s it also all the, all the, 

Erik: all these commercials that are talking about specifically like antidepressants, 

Marc: right? Well, no. And I’s gonna talk about like, how that 

Erik: look and, and the commercial starts with somebody, like you were saying, like shriveled up.

Right? So they shriveled up [00:14:00] on the couch. You know, there’s a, there’s a, always a cloud above them is raining. And sometimes they’ll, they’ll have them walking around and the cloud follows them with rain. Right. Which let’s just like. Put the stigma on top of the stigma on top of the stigma. And then, you know, you see the whole family around, they’re kind of walking on eggshells and then the person takes the medication.

And like, like overnight, suddenly the whole family is reunited. The sun comes out you know, and it’s all glitter and fucking unicorns and rainbows and, and both the beginning of that commercial and the end of the commercial could not the, the frowning emoji. Yes. Mark 

Marc: be anymore. Well, that’s the one could, could we actually see that?

Cuz I, my light is like not in the bed place, but that, that was the commercial I was watching last night. It’s got this fucking frowning. There we go. I got it there. It’s and, and it’s like, you know, and here I was hiding behind my depression. [00:15:00] This is not what depression always looks like. No, it’s just not 

Erik: a thing called smiling depression.

We’ve had it on our show. 

Marc: Like I, I suffer from it. Yes. And like, no one would ever demanded. You’re pre like, you know, you met me a few times now your first thought process is like, that motherfucker’s depressed. Right? No, I don’t, I don’t walk around like that. It it’s, it’s the quiet moments. It’s the moments by myself.

It’s, you know what I mean? Like I, and you know, the biggest sort of facade about it is the facade, right? Like, you know, people wear masks, we all do all the time. And I think, I mean, shit, you know, you talk about like the government and religious perspective, you know, at the wrong time in history, you know, you’d end up having like an exorcism you know, acted upon you because you were bipolar.

They’re like, yeah, well that motherfucker’s obviously possessed , you know, and it’s like, wait, no, that’s not what’s going on here. Jesus, can we please [00:16:00] treat this. Like what it is just an illness 

De’Vannon: now, basically what y’all are calling for is just simply more understanding open-mindedness and love. 

Marc: Yeah, 

Erik: no, exactly.

Sure. I think with anything in life, right? The more, the more people start to have conversations about taboo stigmatized subjects, right. And, and it’s a big problem we have in this country right now. Everybody’s gotta be on one side or another, and we’re not gonna go down the politics road, but you know, whatever happened to people sitting around a table.

And that’s what we like to call our podcast, right? These kitchen table conversations, whatever happened to people sitting around a table and exchanging ideas. I’m thinking like back when I was in undergrad, right? You went to, there was a time you actually went to school. You didn’t have all the answers.

Sometimes you said some things that were fucked up. But nobody like was gonna cancel you for it. [00:17:00] Right. Somebody would say, Hey, let me explain that to you. Let me let’s, let’s talk about that a little more. You have a misunderstanding there and you know, through those conversations, you start to learn more and you become more of a community, but that’s not where we’re at right now.

Everybody has to have one side or another. And if you don’t agree with the other person’s side, like you are wrong, you can’t possibly be. Right. And, and that’s a big part of what’s happening in the mental health world

Marc: right now as well. It’s not even just that Eric it’s, you are wrong and your evil because of it, right?

Like, yeah. There’s that extra layer of judgment. And I think to me, that’s, what’s so polarizing and that’s what makes it almost impossible to find consensus or common ground. Like you can’t just accept, like you can’t use the statement. Like we agree to disagree and then we move on and be friends about it, or, you know, Hey, I actually, I truly think you’re wrong.

Here’s why, but. Okay, whatever. Right. And instead of it’s like, Hey, you are [00:18:00] wrong. And you’re evil and you’re infringing on my rights because of it. Cuz you’ve said something I don’t like, it’s like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like I first off, if you actually have a deep conversation with like 99.9% of the humans, you will find out that you probably agree with them on more things than you disagree.

Like that’s, that’s just the human spirit, right? Like we, you know, it, what you said to Bandon is so accurate and I’m gonna butcher your quote, but you were saying, you know, we’re looking for a little bit more understanding, compassion and, and love in the world and, and, and, and who is it? Right? Like who.

Like that’s, you know, you think about some of the hottest debates out there. And when I say hot, I don’t mean like in a good way. I mean like hot fiery, you know, and we don’t have to get into the political aspect of it, but I’m just talking about it from a metaphorical standpoint, you know, Roe versus Wade and, and women’s rights and the right to choose is on the forefront right now.

But if you actually listen to both sides of the argument, it’s like there’s stuff [00:19:00] in both of those, you know, like science hasn’t quite sorted out when life begins. Nobody should be telling a woman what to do with their body. Like who like who like it. And when you listen to the arguments, it’s like, Shit.

There’s a reason why this has been debated, you know, for a time of Memorial and some of its power I’m and I’m not, and I’m not gonna get, I’m not going to say that there are not bizarre and weird parts of elements of both sides of the argument as well. But the fact of the matter is it’s like, yo, like these people have beliefs, core beliefs and things that you’re like, if you think about it with just an Iotta of, you know, like taking your own thoughts or feelings out of it, you’re like, yeah, I see why there’s an argument here.

And, but, but admitting that or saying that you are automatically in some way sort of alienating yourself from whatever side of that argument that person’s on. Cause you’re like, oh, well you, you just don’t have an opinion then I guess 

De’Vannon: I like the option to not have an opinion. [00:20:00] And it’s one that I often, or I try to speak often, it’s that, you know, we don’t have to have an opinion about every damn thing.

Sometimes just to behold and take in something and not have an opinion one way or the other for good or bad is the choice. So if a woman wants to get an abortion, you don’t have to give a fuck one way or the other. like, you don’t have to care. I’ll be 

Marc: honest. I don’t have a uterus. So I feel like I should kind of shut the fuck up and 

De’Vannon: amen on that.

Not my 

Marc: day. Right. And, and, and I get it, you know what I mean? And I, you know, it’s, it’s such a unique sort of thing in there and that’s, you know, and that’s why I was saying, it’s not, it’s not that argument. So to speak that I want to tee into, but it’s one that is so polarized and it’s, you know, it’s very difficult.

I’m thinking about a conversation I had recently and it’s like, well, can’t, can’t, I have an opinion that somehow sits like near the middle, which by the way, most people do. Like when you really start digging down [00:21:00] into what people think or believe it’s generally not as, it’s rarely as black and white as an opening statement sounds, 

Erik: but also I wanna come back to something disadvantage just said, and that’s that whole idea about, you know, I don’t always wanna have an opinion and, and I think that’s one of the fundamental problems that we as humans are, are going through and have been going through for centuries is, is this two part issue of.

People don’t listen and people immediately form a judgment. And so that’s that whole opinion piece rather than just sitting and listening to what somebody has to say and maybe learning something, or just finding out something that you might not have known before, and then going onto another part of the conversation as somebody starts to speak that other person is immediately forming a judgment and is immediately thinking about how they’re going to, you know, whatever the rebuttal is gonna be to what that person just said.

And from that point on, they’ve completely [00:22:00] tuned them out and haven’t heard the rest of the conversation and, and we’re in that in many ways in the mental health world. And, and we talk so much on the show about not passing judgment. Sometimes you just have to be there for somebody and listen to what they’re going through.

Right? The, the, the. Biggest thing that you can do for somebody who’s going through a crisis is to sit and listen. Don’t form a judgment, don’t form an opinion. And certainly don’t try to solve the problem for them. And I think that then extends out into all of these things that we’ve been talking about, which could make us a much better society as a whole.

Marc: Right. Well, people love to say it, right. I know exactly how you feel. And it’s like in that moment and, and I’m gonna challenge us all fucking stop saying that because no one does a, no one does. And B at that moment, you’ve essentially cut the legs right out from under the person, trying to tell you something that they truly feel.[00:23:00]

Cause the fact of the matter is you could say something, let me give you some suggestions instead of just taking away what you said. You’re like, I felt something like that before. I want to hear why you feel that way. When did you first start feeling this way? Ugh. That sounds really challenging. Have you thought about things that might help you with that?

Okay. So those are all the things that would be way more productive and more helpful, more loving, and you might actually fucking learn something from when you might be going through something like this. When the person looks at you and says, you know, I actually feel a lot better if I spend five minutes in a quiet room by myself in the morning, or meditate or go for a hike or pet my dog, or, you know, let, let my cat scratch me, whatever, you know, like it doesn’t matter or whatever it is.

And, and I think that openness, I love Danna what you had said earlier about that. Cuz it’s I wish it was as simple as like, oh yeah, we just need a little bit more openness and love in the world cuz [00:24:00]it is. But unfortunately the steps to that, there, there seems to be way too many barriers in the way, half the time that we’ve all put up 

De’Vannon: and true.

True, true, true, true, true dad. I wanna get a little bit. Combative. And what you had said something about like, not being friends when you were talking about like the, the, the opposing opinions people draw. So, and I can’t remember exactly how you said what you said, but what it, the thought that, well, it’s, it’s people 

Marc: automatically move to like, oh, we disagree.

So I have to hate you now. 

De’Vannon: To an extent yes, but not. So to the extent of self preservation. So like, I would not, I will not be friends with somebody who has an anti Q I a mindset because people do things to hurt people in my community. I totally get. And also, I don’t want to be around negative energy.

And so, like, I don’t go to churches at [00:25:00] all anymore, but I, but specifically I wouldn’t go to a church that preaches against homosexuality. I wouldn’t. And I, and I like to tell people to stop doing that and stop rationalizing the little things that churches and different people and groups of friends say and say, okay, well, that’s just one thing.

I would just focus on all the good stuff, but that one thing should be a deal breaker. You know? Cause we heard ourselves that we go and sit and listen to a, a preacher, tell us were wrong. We heard ourselves. If we, if we’re around a group of people who they’re like, well, we don’t hate you. We hate the sin or it’s not me.

Who’s saying that you’re wrong. It says it right here in the Bible, you know, all of that is, is harmful to us. So to the extent of self preservation, I want people to stop associating and hanging out with people who disagree with your lifestyle or something that you are. Especially when you’re not actively trying to hurt them because it is not okay for me, for people to draw conclusions about other people.

That’s not the point of our, we live to improve ourselves, not to find out what’s wrong with [00:26:00]other people. And so I say, get away from the crazy motherfuckers. So I don’t fucks with people like that. Anybody who I find out, either voted for Trump has an anti LGBTQ I a plus community. I mean, shit, not community like opinion cut off bitch.

Now, if you wanna buy some shit from my store, I’m not gonna turn you away. Cuz I don’t have to like you to take your money. I learned that when I was selling meth from my fucking drug supplier, my meth cook and you know, emotions, ain’t got nothing to do with finances and vice versa, but you can’t be in my personal life and you, you know, you gotta get the fuck away, give me your money, take your product and go.

Marc: I, I, I get that. And the thing, I guess, I’m, I was thinking more of like the theoretical and sort of like argument decisions where, you know, people, you know, and it happens in families and friends. And, and I guess the difference for me though, and, and I wanna say this first demand, I absolutely agree with you.

Like, if, if, if they’re [00:27:00] coming for you, get the fuck away or make the decision that, you know, that’s the hill you’re gonna die on, so to speak and, you know, and I think for lack of a better way of looking at it, that’s where from a survivor to thriver sort of came up and it’s why Eric has shared his story the way he has and why I’ve shared parts of my story the way I have.

And, and, and I’ve been very open about the fact that the reason why I haven’t shared my whole story is because of how many other people it involves. You know, I’m the child, I’m the child of long term family trauma, unfortunately. And I don’t At this point in my life, preserving some of those other relationships and allowing that to continue is more important versus where you are demanded, which I totally can see myself getting to.

And it’s kind of where Eric is. It’s like you motherfuckers came from me so you can go stand over there in the corner. And I’m going to build a brick wall and, and I see absolute value and, and power and love in both of those. Right? And, [00:28:00] and the fact that the matter is Dian and you won’t let them into your personal life, but you are still with the way you live and the way you speak.

And the people you associate with are still trying to change their minds without letting them into your life, which is like double power, right? You’re like, no, no, no, no, no. I’m gonna show you that this is, this is human and this is life, but no, no, no, you can’t come have dinner, fucking dicks. 

De’Vannon: yeah. You know?

Yeah. If they ever want to actually catch a conscience and get over themselves and. And change and become open minded and not being a judgemental whole well then. Sure. But they still won’t have access to me. Absolutely. And they should, right. I’m not actively trying to change their minds, but if it happens as they byproduct, I’m open to that, you know, energetically I’m open to that possibility.


Marc: amazing what sexy underwear will do to people’s minds. Right. 

De’Vannon: It’s all, it all boils down to the mind. But you I mean, you’re not completely like a closed book, mark you you you’ve, you’ve [00:29:00] given me a couple of things about yourself that you, that you, that you like to talk about, or at least wouldn’t be willing to, particularly, I believe it was you, who was like you coming from a Catholic background.

I’m a recovering Catholic, you’re recovering Catholic and everyone who listens my show knows I cannot stand the Catholic church. So I think everyone should watch on. He B O max the young Pope and the new Pope with I can’t remember with Jude, Jude. Law’s fine. 

Erik: The Pope on there, let’s just say, are you watching that for the actual programming or are you watching it 

Marc: for Jude law?

Let’s, let’s 

Erik: be honest. 

Marc: I, I’m also very open. I am not into Dick, but he is a beautiful man. He is he’s. He is a sexy beast. I, I, you know, the thing about being a recovering Catholic is there are two things right now that are interesting to me. The first thing is this new Pope actually gives me hope that organized religion can actually adapt and change to a [00:30:00] world.

Right. And, and do I think it’s actually gonna happen in the long run? No, because I. Some very, you know, there are very distinct sex within that organization, sex S E C Ts. If you know my new England accent messed with you, sex, not sex, or as the talkers would say sex, right? S E G GS. But no, no. So they there’s always like a swing within that organization.

And I, and I call it an organization because that’s always been my problem with organized religion sort of to itself. Like, I understand spirituality. I understand. You know, if you read about Jesus, you’re like, yeah, there’s great, dude, man, like that these teachings and philosophies are something we can all live better lives by embracing, but then you add the human element of the bureaucracy and the protection of power around it.

And I got kicked out of my confirmation class. I. [00:31:00] Made the mistake of challenging a priest who said that my parents needed to be present at a confirmation class with me to prove that they, you know, approved what I was doing. And I reminded him that I was pretty sure that my confirmation was a contract between me and God and no one else.

And that went over like the proverbial fart and church, believe it or not. And I was asked to leave, so yeah, they can fuck. Right. 

De’Vannon: You dared. I agree with that church can fuck right off by and large. So, so basically you attempted to do the one thing they would hate for you to do is to remove them from the equation and just get back to you and God 

Marc: correct.

which, which is like, what they tell you, right? They’re like your relationship is with God. This is, this is the house of God, but God lives every like, literally like, and, and as someone who isn’t religious in their life at all now, like you wanna talk scripture? I could talk scripture. It was like, it was like the last [00:32:00] time I remembered reading the Bible, he said, you know, look not for me in my house, but look for me in the mountains and the sky and the streams.

And yeah. Then they asked me to leave. So 

Erik: I’m looking, I’m looking at 

Marc: the mountains right now. Well, but see, it’s one of the things that I’ve always appreciated. About Juddaism and the Jewish religion is that it is actually the conversations you would often have with a rabbi. And now look, every organization can have its own fallacies, but most rabbis are just interested in hearing what your relationship with God is.

They don’t necessarily wanna tell you what it is. And, and I know there are. Pluses and minuses to all things, but that, it’s one of the things that I’ve always appreciated about, about most of the people that I know that are devout and are, you know, Jewish in 

Erik: that way. All right. You wanna go down the, you wanna go down the pathway of Judaism though?

Cause you got, yeah, you got me. Yeah. Yeah. You got me on, so let’s talk about a religion where gosh, what am I? Five days old. Okay. I’m [00:33:00] I’m I’m strip buck fucking naked. I’m on a table in front of like way 

Marc: who’s looking at you right now. Like he’s very excited about what happened 

Erik: next. I know family and friends while they Cho on bagels and locks, right.

While some guy with a beard, like down to his knees, takes a knife and takes off my four skin. What kind of a fucking religion is that? Okay. Cause that’s still going on right now. 

Marc: It, I feel like as somebody who was circumcised that in the hospital, like moments after I was born I feel like the bigger issue is not being able to eat Tral lobster.

Just to be honest. wait, 

De’Vannon: Eric, Eric took get to bed and wait, wait, Eric, your circumcision really happened like this, or were you like kind of fucking, oh no. That’s 

video1373306905: legit 

Marc: dude. Oh no. That’s legit. That’s it’s not a doctor. It’s a, just a fucking dude who knows how to it’s a loyal. 

Erik: Yes. So when you get off this show demand, you gotta look this 

Marc: up, but yet his age it’s blew his fucking mind.

Look it up. [00:34:00] so that’s exactly, 

Erik: exactly what happens for a Jewish 

Marc: male. When they’re throw a party. Throw a party party while you’re lying. Everybody’s gonna be there. 

Erik: They take a, yeah, they take like some sort of whiskey or something and they rub it on the baby’s gums. And you are on a table as your parents are watching some guy, right.

Who calls himself a mole. And he is there with a knife and, and off comes the four skin, the baby starts screaming gets carried to another room

Marc: and everyone, and everybody screams 

Erik: mazel to mazel to, and the bagels and locks continue. So Judaism starts at about five days old. So all, all religions have, 

Marc: I’m watching the well.

And Eric, I have to ask this question cuz as, as someone who’s not Jewish, I do know a lot about the traditions and I’ve, I’ve actually actually been present, but. Is there a cuz I know they often have a naming ceremony as well. Like timing wise. Do you have your [00:35:00] name before you Dick get trimmed or does that happen after I, you, 

Erik: as you know, I’m not a very practicing Jew anymore.

And I’m not. Totally sure. But I know, I know the circumcision needs to be within seven days. I’m pretty sure it’s seven days. Yeah. Somebody out there’s gonna probably call me on it, but I think it’s seven days. I’m not sure he’s starting to scratch himself. I think 

Marc: he’s, he’s really uncomfortable. He’s oh shit.

Now I’m uncomfortable. 

De’Vannon: I, oh, no, I’m not uncomfortable, but I thank God for Jesus. And for the fact that we do not have to do all of that anymore. So I mean, if that’s truly their tradition, I respect whatever it is that they wanted to do. If they, if they felt like that’s what they’re wanted to do. But the whole point of Jesus is that we don’t have to live by that.

That old code anymore. And we could heat our fucking lobster and whatever part of the hoof and whatever else we want to, you know, we don’t have all of those laws and restrictions. And for God’s sakes, we have hospitals. If somebody wants to get [00:36:00] circumcised 

Erik: and again, like every, like every religion, right.

There’s in Judaism, there’s Orthodox. Right. And Scher cha like there’s, there’s all sorts of like the people that fall into different categories of Orthodox Judaism, then there’s conservative, which I would say is, you know, middle ground. 

Marc: And then it’s the, it’s the Catholic. Yes. And then 

Erik: there’s, and then there’s And so different people are brought up different ways.

And for, for me, I’m not sure if I’ve even gone into it much on, on the show, but my grandmother my mother’s mother was Orthodox. And so I went to Orthodox temple growing up. And so you know, from my bar mitzvah, I did the entire Saturday service and things like that. And, and she died when I was 10.

And so that was, that was one bond that we had together. I would go to Saturday services with her and then we’d go have lunch and then we’d go bowling. And then when she passed away, I feel like religion for me really fell [00:37:00] off the map. And she was the one, she was the one who. Kind of brought that into my life.

It wasn’t something that I hate to use the word, my parents, and I’m not gonna use their real names on this show. But the people who gave birth to me never really followed through with any pieces and parts of, of Judaism throughout, you know, my teenage years. And and then I go and I marry, you know, a, a wonderful woman from great neck long island.

And so kind of rekindled a bit of the, I would say kind of the social side of Judaism, but not necessarily the spiritual side. 

Marc: Well, and the thing that you bring up there, which I think is super important and. Is the connection to family and community. And I think it’s, you know, if we were gonna talk about like what a secular life is [00:38:00] missing it can be that right.

Like if you think about, especially coming out of the pandemic, you know, a lot of people have lost their social networks, this web of people what, you know, by not having had contact with them and not being able to reproduce it. And you know, when I think about the people in my family, that religion was so important to that church family was a part of the larger family and that connection and, and having been really close to my grandmothers, my GRA I, I have a great, you know, actually two great grandmothers that lived until I was a teenager.

And I was very close with both of them. And religion was one of the things that reconnected on. And one of the difficult things was one of my grandmothers did not understand my argument. With the church, it made no sense to her. Cuz she was like, you are a child, like do what you’re told. And I was like, well that’s cute.

But the way the [00:39:00] Bible’s written at 13, I become an adult in the, in the minds of the church. So I can’t do it that way. Like it does it, you know? And I’m, those of you that know me, I’m such a stubborn and sort of literal person in that way. Eric’s over there like, oh, I don’t know what to say next 

Erik: stubborn asshole at times.


Marc: that? Oh sure. Yeah. Doesn’t at all. I prefer prick, but yeah. Assholes. Okay too. No and I just in a loving way in a loving way. But there’s it, you lose, you lose the power and the connection of that when it’s toxic, right? Like demand. And I think about your story. You know, essentially you got ostracized by your family, those people were your family, you know, your, the deep connection you had with those kids that you were working with and, you know, the, the staff you were working with that family and, and, and they were basically like, oh, actually you’re a center.

Get the fuck out. [00:40:00] And it’s like, wait, I thought we were all sinners in the eyes of the Lord. And we all deserve forgiveness and love. No. Oh, well fuck you. Then , you know, 

Erik: Danna, but for Danna and I blame the evil MySpace.

Marc: I forget about that part. Be MySpace. Yeah. And I, is that even still there, if you search, is it even still there anywhere? Can you find it? I dunno, 

Erik: but at some point we gotta take that picture and we’ve gotta juxtapose it against our friend mark his photo which which sometimes makes the rounds in in some of our group settings.

And maybe we’ll send it Toon too, just as a little teaser. 

Marc: Yeah, absolutely. So Danna we’ve completely hijacked you. Shit. Is there something you wanted to talk about or ask us? 

De’Vannon: I like, I like how, how Larry King used to [00:41:00] conduct his Larry King live? You know, his philosophy was to always let the guests talk more than him.

You know, each show was different. Sometimes I probably talk a little, just as much as the guest and today is not one of those days. And I feel like that’s, that’s exactly what it should be. So so we will let this flow in the way it should flow. And everything that y’all have said is, is polarizing, you know, to the degree that I think that is going to help a lot of people.

The last thing I wanna say about the church and y’all are talking about Lakewood church, Houston, Texas. Jolo seen ministries where I received my biggest church trauma at, I just, I wish that people would have a stronger connection with God. And not be so much into rituals, into church personalities, into churches, into priests, into different things like that.

The most heartbreaking thing that I heard coming out of this whole Ukrainian crisis, I was [00:42:00]listening to, I think the morning Joe show on MSNBC. And there was this lady saying, like, she’s not a, this Ukrainian woman saying, like, she’s not afraid to die. She’s just afraid to die because she hadn’t had a chance to make it to the priest to confess.

And, and I thought, you know, she’s super brave, you know, but the whole point of Jesus was that, that you don’t have to go through somebody anymore to get forgiveness. You can just simply ask for it wherever you’re at this hurdle, the hurdles, the Catholic church in particular, I think they’re the biggest perpetrators of this.

And then all denominations wanna put a man back in between you and God and. I agree with mark. We don’t need them. It’s just us and Jesus. We don’t have to have these people. And I just thought that was so sad, you know, you know, you’re brave enough to go fight Russia and die, but you hear you’re for your soul because you don’t have a chance to go confess to some man in a booth

Erik: [00:43:00] But isn’t that where we are with all these stigmas, right? It’s like, and that’s why I know Davan and you have your show mark. And I have our show. It’s this whole idea about, you know, people are afraid to talk and they’re afraid to talk and they’re afraid of the judgment that might come from it. So in, in the instance of the Catholic church, right, there’s somebody that’s sitting on the other side of the, I have, I’ve never done it.

I’ve only visited some churches, but 

Marc: I can tell you all about it. 

Erik: Yep. Somebody’s sitting on the other side and you are telling them all of the things, right. That are supposedly sinned. So you can confess so you can feel better, but what happened, you know, just, just talking about it. Like me talking to you or me talking to mark or, or me just kind of being at peace with it myself.

Why, why does it have to be through some middleman who then can communicate to somebody 

Marc: else? Well, there’s two things. I’m gonna answer your question. Imagine that I usually don’t. I usually don’t the first thing is, and, and I don’t think we can [00:44:00] talk about this without bringing this up and, and, and I’m not using this as an argument for it or against it, but it is what it is.

There, there is a sense of the power of ritual, right? Like, no matter what it is. And, and Eric, as someone who’s suffered from O C D you know, more than anyone, the on wheel, the unwielding undeniable power of ritual whether it’s how you count things, what you do. And so, and, and I Don. And this is where I get weird, cuz I will rail against organized religion, but then I’m like, but wait, I get it right.

Like the theater of it, the understanding, the, the power of sitting somewhere and telling someone else something you don’t want to tell anyone. Right? Like I could tell you for sure. As a child, I definitely said things in a confessional booth. I would not have wanted to say to my mom, dad, brother, sister, friends.

And then I would pray a bunch, which I never understood cuz the prayers and, and I still know them all absolutely. By rote. I actually freaked my wife out the other day [00:45:00] cuz said something about religion. And she was like, yeah, well, you know what? You put that. I was like, I could recite the nice and creed right now.

And she was like, really? I’m like, yep. The whole thing. And and I was an altar boy for years. So I actually know a bunch of the prayers and stuff in Latin as well. Cause I went to an old school Roman Catholic church, but so power of ritual, I think it’s important. And I don’t think you can talk about that without.

At least an homage or an understanding of like, there is power in that we feel that the second bit of it is, and I think this is the crux of what Danna was talking about is, and I, and I think it actually leads to a lot of the mental health issues we can have nowadays is there is such a lack of understanding and self-awareness and empathy within us, all that we almost need someone else to kind of break through, right?

Like we need someone to tell us that Jesus loves us cuz we don’t love ourselves so to speak. And I know that’s a really oversimplified way of saying it, but [00:46:00] I, I just can’t help. But think that that is part of the issue, right? That we are, we are looking for this external validation, this external feel or, you know, understanding of love because we’re not willing and.

There’s no money in people loving themselves. Right? Like you can’t, you can’t build an organization on it. You, you say you do, but you’re like, yeah, but you have to come here once a week as the reminder. And don’t forget to put that envelope in the donation basket. 

De’Vannon: I don’t care for prescribed the prayers, like the, the, the, the scripts within the Catholic church.

And I guess other religions too, how they’re telling you what to pray, takes away the sincerity of just coming off of your heart and talking to God in a free, full conversation. Absolutely 

Marc: defendant. But that’s the power of that ritual, right? It’s the same reason why we like to chant at a sporting event or, you know what I mean?

Like, and I think, you know, the theater of it, you can’t, I don’t think you can ignore it. Maybe it’s because I’m an actor but I [00:47:00] really think that that like shared community, you know, singing a hin together. Right. Cause to me a, him and a prayer are one in the same one has an organ and one has a rhythm in the same words.

It’s it’s the same shit. 

De’Vannon: No, I think it’s all a trick or at least a lot of it is a 

Marc: trick. I don’t, I don’t disagree with that, but I’m saying that there is power in the trick. 

De’Vannon: Okay. I hear what you’re saying. So if we had more love for ourselves and if our family units at home were stronger than the church could not replace this for us, you know?

So if amen brother. So like, so when people go and get into like gangs or like I did in the criminal underworld, we’re seeking family and stuff like that this year is, is an inherent indication of the fracture within us, as people. And as a, as a, as societies, as a whole, since we’re all broken and shit, you know, we go out trying to get field up.

And I think the church is just as much of a drug as crystal meth and heroin. Or [00:48:00] anything else. And I think people get addicted to the ritual you speak of without even realizing it, but because it’s cute and it’s acceptable and you don’t have a needle hanging out in your arm with blood squirting on the windows and they’re not gonna come get you and strap you to a stretcher and shit like that.

Like I’ve been, you know, then it’s accepted, it’s an acceptable addiction. Church is an acceptable 

Marc: addiction, but I think, well, and also 

Erik: I’m gonna go back to what mark talked about with O C D I think there is a piece of it there, which for me, O C, D one was about being able to control what I, right. What I could control or thought I could control.

But the other piece of it, O C D the manifestation of it is so much about finding safety and secure. Right. And that was what it was for me. I felt like if I didn’t do these things, something bad would happen. If I didn’t do these things, the intrusive thoughts would continue. And I think there’s an element in organized religion for some people and whether it’s been learned or whether it’s been told to them, but, but [00:49:00] they’re, they feel that there’s a safety and security.

If they go to this place, right. To be around other people, to, to worship whoever it might be, whatever religion it might be. And if they don’t do that, then something bad will happen. And I think that is the really dangerous side to van into what you are speaking about in terms of, you know, these organized religions is, is in some ways they almost scare people into thinking if you don’t.

Practice this, as we tell you, then yo, you’re going to hell, right? All these other, all these other terrible things are gonna happen to you. 

Marc: Mm-hmm well, since this is called sex drugs in Jesus, I feel like we also need to invoke some rock and roll. And I was, I was listening to you talk cuz you know, that’s how my brain works.

I was reminded of one of my favorite bands rage against the machine and they have a song called killing [00:50:00] in the name of right. And it, it clearly attacks systemic racism and, and there’s probably a bunch of people are gonna hear this and be like, wow, I never really realized that’s what the song was about.

But the lyric is those are them. That workforces are those of them that burn crosses. Right. They repeated a bunch of times. And I think that is where the disconnect is to that. And then I, and I absolutely agree with you. It’s like. At some point or in some way, I hope or have the optimism that the people that got together are like, we are the church of blah, blah, blah, had a true idyllic and idealistic and a need for community, no different than we do with you writing your book and hosting your podcast and us hosting the podcast and moving into hosting events and doing other things.

But you start adding the layers and then it gets corrupted. So to speak right now, I’m sure there are some organizations that were corrupt to [00:51:00] begin with. You know, if you think about the fact that, you know, the, the beginnings of the Roman Catholic church was essentially, you know, A a Roman emperor going, okay, I’m Catholic.

Now we’re gonna adapt all these pagan rituals, you know for those of you out there, no, like there’s no mention of a bunny in the Bible. So , you could take your Easter bunny and, and go screw, cuz that’s what they were telling you to do. It’s springtime, it’s time to have the babies. And that’s why the fucking bunny lays eggs bitches.

So, but I’m gonna be in so much trouble. My mother’s gonna be like, why, why did you have to get on fucking show and yell about pagan rituals and Catholicism again? And there is no 

Erik: Hanukah Harry and there is no Hanukah Bush, 

Marc: but I think, but there is Hank to Christmas poop. I believe in Hank, the Christmas poop can we get to the sex part yet?

So yeah, but we can, because really that’s the power and control of it, right? You know, and, and, and it was actually a question [00:52:00] I can’t believe I’m gonna flip this on you demand. And like, you’re the host. I’m gonna ask you a question. Listen to you talk about the idea of like power control, the corruption element of it.

And then within the church, I wonder, do you think of, or understand this idea of, like, you talked about how our families are broken nowadays? I read a very interesting article the other day, talking about how the nuclear family was a mistake, meaning, you know, the idea that there’s a mom and dad and kids, and like that’s the nuclear family, you know, focus on the family, all that shit.

And then it essentially made life much easier for the kids because we’ve pointed fingers at the mom and dad and say, this is what you guys are supposed to be doing. Right. So if it works well, the kids essentially become the center of it. I don’t know about your background, but I know for Eric and I growing up where we grew up and knowing a bit about him and his family, It wasn’t just about our mom and dad.

There were aunts, uncles, grandmothers, like there was this village that raised us as kids. Like, I, I can point to [00:53:00] so many seminal moments from other members of our family or even some of my mom and dad’s close friends who were really more like aunts and uncles versus just my mom and dad. And I wonder from a community standpoint, as the family has gotten sort of smaller, right?

Like it’s not as like, think of how many parents raise kids now, and they’re not even near their parents or this or that, that, I wonder if that’s some of the breakdown, but it also makes people search out and seek out that community and family in different ways. Like, do you, I mean, have you thought about that?

Does that make sense to you in that way? 

De’Vannon: It does because we seek community, whether we realize it or not, And so, which is something I didn’t realize. And I got kicked out of Lakewood because I went and subconsciously sought community out in the streets where I knew I wouldn’t be judged at like at, in nightclubs and in drug houses.

And so, but I didn’t realize that what that’s, what I was doing. And so, so absolutely we, we always are gonna find some sort of [00:54:00] tribe. I found like a sense of family through gaming, you know, through playing live action, role player games and stuff like that. Cuz you can talk to people and stuff in real time through the games, you know, that’s something that really sustained me through the pandemic.

And so we go and seek it. But just like with all things, I think we can take anything too far. How much fucking family do you really need?

Marc: you only. 

De’Vannon: You only need two or three motherfuckers in your car and you don’t need the, the whole damn village. Cause not that many people like your ass anyway. Not that, not that you’re not lovable and likable, but people have their own insecurities and shit going on and you’re gonna have a whole lot of enemies in this life.

So the higher you go, you have to tighten the reigns around you. So I don’t think the thing is going out, trying to get as many friends and as many people closer you, as you can just get a few good relationships and cultivate those, [00:55:00] you know, rather than becoming addicted to family. I think people are addicted to family too.

And the concept of family to the extent that they will not let them go. Even if they become abusive, people are way too. Antifamily. 

Marc: Anything I’ve never not let go. I’ve never understood the like, blood is thicker than water element because it, you know, and I, I don’t know if I don’t remember demand if we mentioned it.

I’m pretty sure we did. Yeah, we did. For sure. You know, talking this idea of like chosen family and how important that is of finding, as you just said, quote, those motherfuckers in your corner, like re really in your corner. But I think the other piece of it is we it’s like anything else when it comes down to this stigma or this idea, it’s like, unfortunately we are sort of products of what we’ve been told if we allow ourselves to believe it.

And we’re like, no, this is important. I have to do this. I have to, you know, rectify this. And it’s like, not if it’s killing you, you know, I, I think back to your statement earlier, like if, if they’re coming for me, then no, they don’t get to come here. They don’t get to [00:56:00] be with this. They don’t get to, you know, be there and, and even IFA.

And even if it is your family, I mean, look. That’s hard. I get it. And I’m not suggesting you now go over every relationship you have with the fine tooth, go and be like, you motherfuckers are out, you know, it’s gonna be like, you know, the airing of grievances and Seinfeld. I’ve got a lot of problem with all of you people, but if it’s truly harmful, yeah, you gotta cut that shit out.

You gotta let it go. 

De’Vannon: So I wanna encourage people like you were mentioning the truth, like where the fucking Easter bunny comes from. I was thinking about that the other day. So y’all you go to church generally because your parents told you to you, you, you go on Easter egg hunts, cuz your parents or somebody told you to, but you know, have you ever really thought, where did this fucking bunny come from?

Where did the hell is a Cadbury egg? What, why are we coloring these fucking eggs? Different holidays come around where the fuck do all of these different things have to [00:57:00] do with it? Where did it really come from? Best 

Marc: part is it’s not even a leap. You’re like wait, eggs and rabbits. What are they.

De’Vannon: Because rabbit don’t lay eggs rabbit. 

Marc: Well, no, but the, the egg is, but both are delicious, but both are delicious, delicious, and eggs are delicious. And they’re both about fertility. Like, you know, it’s, and, and I, that’s the thing, like when you think about these PA rituals, like it’s so simple, you know, I love the fact that you talk about like burning the U log.

It’s like, Hey, you know why they did that? Cause it’s fucking cold. , you know, it’s like, it’s not even that hard to sort out. And if you get power from your belief and your spirituality, I’m not here arguing with you. I, I just, I feel like I need to say that cuz I get in trouble sometimes. Cuz I, I speak like, you know, everything I know is a fact it’s not, but, but please have some understanding for those of us that stand over in the corner and go Jesus and a bunny have nothing in common.

De’Vannon: Well, I want people to, I mean, have all the joy [00:58:00] and the strength from what you believe in, but I need people to under to be sure that the shit’s laid on the right foundation, you know, you know, You gotta know why you believe what you believe and what you believe. Is it true? Somebody who I interviewed on a sh or I I’m in the process of doing several interviews with, we’re gonna be talking about who the fuck actually translates the Bible and the political aspect.

Oh boy. The financial influence, the political and financial influence on the organizations that are responsible for all the interpretations of the Bible. And so, which is why I always preach for people to learn Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic and translate it yourself. And, and to make it clear that all of these different translations, however many hundreds of ’em we have are done by a group of people with, with an alter ter motives.

And they have a whole different agenda, white, I mean, prob probably white conservative people, but they’re not inviting black people, gay people, trans people, everyone to the table to translate the Bible. It’s just your group of [00:59:00] good old boys and shit like that. 

Marc: Well, but, but even the fact that like, you’re like, great, like, let’s go back to the Hebrew of the, a.

It was an oral tradition. They’re not even sure how long it was an oral tradition before they wrote that shit down. Like, and I think talk about SAC religious, their stories, their stories guys. Like I, and, and I think the, the, their, the Bible is a powerful and incredible book and incredible resource. But my agnostic or atheist hat is gonna show here for a second when I’m like, so yeah, there was a flood I’m sure there was.

And some dude who was called crazy for probably however long he was building the boat may have built the boat, all that, but the story is there to teach you a lesson, just like every other piece of literature and art is there, whether or not the artist even realizes it, you know, and I. Yeah. I mean, the fact of the matter is you don’t even, again, like you don’t [01:00:00] even have to peel back the cover that far, like the Bible that the majority of people have read is the king James version.

So you don’t think there was a political bent or understanding like king James is like, Hey, I’m gonna go ahead and release this book that isn’t supporting my agenda. Fuck. No, he was a smart guy. 

De’Vannon: Well, smart enough. So what you’re saying is like the, the Noah story Noah in the arc was the flood was probably true, but it may not have covered the whole world.

Maybe it didn’t go that far, maybe time. 

Marc: So, or maybe it did, or maybe it covered the whole world, the, the person who wrote that story or told it for the first time knew, right. Like, you know, it let, let’s not forget the fact that, you know, history has been sort of cyclical and you know, 1500 years after we think.

Know Jesus was born. People still thought the world was flat. Like, like have a little [01:01:00]historical perspective here. There are still people who think the world is flat. Yeah. Fuck them. I’m sorry. Fuck. Yeah, if you’re a flat outturn I, I can’t. Well, cuz that’s the perfect example of like where do you start from there?

Right. Like it’s exactly Devon’s argument. And he’s like, if they’re coming for me, because I’m part of the LGBTQ community, like that’s a nonstarter. He’s like, I can’t, I can’t explain to them that I deserve to live my life the way I, I, I, I have to like, I can’t explain that so that you can’t start there.

It’s like, oh, like, okay, we fake the moon landing. Like if that, if all that ends up true, I am fine to be on the wrong side of it. I don’t believe that.

De’Vannon: I agree. Like so if somebody reads the Bible, even if you don’t believe every story in there. You know, you could at least take the lessons from it. I don’t think everything’s in the Bible and that’s it, but I believe that you can get like a good idea for how to approach God. And the whole point of it is it [01:02:00] leads you to God and for you to not treat people like shit.

So so where the absolutely parts of it, you know, it is a guide, that’s it, but it’s certainly not meant for you to go and control someone else with 

Marc: well, and it’s like, again, talking about it, even from a historical perspective, not withstanding that the translations can be good or bad. It’s like there’s a bunch of slavery and eliminating entire communities and, you know, women subservient to men it’s like, is that the life that you think is enlightened and wonderful and, and, and paying homage to the spirit and soul of every person.

No. Right. So we don’t, we don’t have to take every letter of the Bible to that. And, and that’s your absolutely right. Sort of translating my. Slightly SACS statement of no, it’s their, their stories. And they’re there to instruct and teach, but you know, it, it doesn’t allow us like, you know, God damn it. Like, we’re not gonna take a bunch of people to the edge of town and stone them.

Like, that’s not how [01:03:00] we should be living as a community anymore. 

Erik: So if I were to sum up this part of our conversation, feeling in the name of to leave D Van’s audience with, with my summation, it’s a pretty simple and clear message. Don’t be a Dick, 

Marc: unless somebody really wants the Dick. And then be the Dick.

That’s different. Don’t 

Erik: be a Dick. I didn’t say don’t give Dick two different 

Marc: things. Very different. 

De’Vannon: Dick donations go a long way. 

Erik: Certainly don’t lie on a table when you’re 

Marc: five days old. But you were in this and that’s, and that’s honestly what Devon speaks to. It’s like, you get indoctrinated in this shit and you know, it’s like, maybe I wanted my,

Erik: I certainly didn’t wanna take it off in front of everybody else.

De’Vannon: You know, I think about, you know, the amount [01:04:00] of it’s like people like pick and choose what of the, of the old Hebrew culture like they want. So, so they want to come for like say gay people, but then they want to have all the lobster and shit that they want, or they want to get, you know, circumcised, which I don’t, I, I wonder how many men running around who are circumcised even know that that was a Hebrew thing.

I mean, I wonder their parents bothered to explain to them, you know, that this is a, an ancient. Israelite practice that we’re doing well. 

Marc: So in the United States, it actually essentially got adopted by the medical profession. And, you know, there’s a lot of theories as to why it happened. Part of it is a lot of people that were in the medical profession at the turn of the century happened to be Jewish men.

And there was this idea of cleanliness. Like there’s, you know, there’s a lot of reasons, you know, as, as a Christian who circumcised was like, I’ll never forget when I sorted out that, like, it didn’t have to happen. And I was like, mom, you let them [01:05:00] cut my Dick. She was like, they told me that’s what we were supposed to do.

So I did it. And I was like, but like it, I was like, mom, I read the other day that I lose like 40% of like my sexual nerves and feeling when that got cut off. And she was like, Is it really, is it really not working for you? And I was like, oh, well, I don’t want to get into that with your mom, but yeah,

literally, and, and then I, you know, as I was want to do, I started doing some research and then you saw all like, you know, general mutilation through all these different cultures, all over the world. And I’m like, God, what is wrong with us? I 

Erik: knew we’d I knew we’d move in the genital direction at some point during the podcast.

Marc: that’s clever, 

De’Vannon: well, shit, a, a copper tool do, as we offer, 

Marc: I want that 

De’Vannon: t-shirt, a cock tool. Do 

Marc: Kaka doodle do, but it’s [01:06:00] kinda just a Kaka tool. Do you should make a little, like, you know, you should put that on wherever the little tag is and, and some of the, the undies you should have like a, just, just a cocka tool do that’d be a, that’d be a fun, like little Easter egg that people could find Easter egg.

De’Vannon: I seen what you did, babe. okay. So go ahead. So what we’re going to do is I’m gonna have y’all back on again because I wanna on the next, in the next time I wanna get, I wanna, I wanna get deeper into y’all specific mental health struggles. You mentioned your O C D Eric. I want, I wanna get like, into like a really, really deep dive in that I want in the panic attacks and like your, the dissociative episodes and things like that, that I was reading about.

I wanna get very granular with that. And with you, mark, I want more Catholic fuckery from [01:07:00] you. 

Marc: I’d be happy to talk about Catholic fuckery, and if you wanted to go on a deeper dive in the mental health, I’d be happy to share about my own battles with depression, suicidal ideation and self-esteem issues.

Those were my sort of three big.

Some of it came from the Catholics. I blame them. Oh yeah. Well

Erik: go. I’m happy to get on the whole, you know, I, what am I, I’m 50 now six months ago. I was finally diagnosed with PTSD related to not physical, but emotional childhood trauma. So yeah, there’s a, there’s a whole story there that I’m more than happy to unpack and, and be open about and, and share with your audience.

And you know, it’s we were on a mark and I were doing a, a recording a couple of nights ago and, and this whole idea kind of came to me as, and Marco remember like like we call him, you know, some people have light bulb moments. I have these like chandelier moments, whether it’s skiing or [01:08:00] mountain biking or, or when we’re doing a show.

And I, cause 

Marc: his brain has a thick membrane of resistance. 

Erik: The neuroplasticity is just so incredible, mark. So, and it came to me, I’d been talking so long about that, you know, the mental health journey and how it’s non-linear and nonlinear and non-linear, and I’m starting to hear the word nonlinear a lot more.

And then it made me think, well, now I’m going back into my geeky finance days and it’s got this, you know, non-linear and it’s kind of like an equation. And then it hit me like a, a ton of light bulbs that it’s fluid, right? The, the mental health journey is fluid. And, and for me, so much of my life is about trying to be more with the flow, the water element and, and a lot of what I’ve gone through recently in my own journey.

And, and so even things like that, just, it, it continues to evolve how I even, how I even look at my own personal journey. So I’m happy to happy to get into that dialogue and, and [01:09:00] go as deep as 

Marc: you want. 

De’Vannon: Balls deep

Marc: is what I would, I will go balls deep. We’ll go balls deep, but we’re still gonna talk about religion and dicks and Easter eggs.

De’Vannon: Hey, they, they are great. Be they may, they, they are bedfellows these days where there’s a great amount to everybody’s discretion. So the last thing we’re gonna talk about today before we begin to wrap it up is. The most recent episode that y’all released on your own podcast. I wanna give people a taste of the flavor.

If this episode hasn’t already done it. And I believe that it has, but this episode is important to me because I used to be a model back in the day when I was at Houston, Texas. I was also a model on team boards here when malls used to have them for Parisians, which is. Macy’s and when I was in high school.

And so the modeling industry is a big deal. It touches all of our lives. Cause everywhere you look, there’s a model somewhere, whether you’re walking into Walgreens and you see a makeup models, picture [01:10:00] plastered in there, you’re watching a. A commercial or whatever, you know, modeling is everywhere, but there’s a lot of shit that happened.

So y’all had a girl on there. She was talking about her mental health struggles with like bulimia and different stuff like that and getting molested on photo shoots. So speak to me about that episode. 

Erik: Sure. So it was Danny Chipo it’s episode 59. So she started in the model industry. I’m not gonna give the whole episode away, but when she was 17 years old in, in New York city and she talks about how very quickly it became a toxic world for her.

It was all, you know, she had struggled for a very long time prior to that with self-esteem issues with body dysmorphia. So you can only imagine when she entered the world of modeling and she was doing all sorts of, you know, lingerie modeling to you know, clothing modeling so the whole, the whole spectrum.

And so as you know, as a girl growing up in New York city and as a [01:11:00] teenager, dealing with all of those issues, you throw the model industry on top of that. And then she struggled for a very long time. Bulimia the, the toxicity of the overall model environment. She was, you know, sexually, sexually assaulted on a, on a model shoot.

And she was able to successfully get out of her modeling contract, but her journey continues to this day. She is an avid baseball fan. One of the things that mark and I connected with her very, very early on is where we’re huge baseball fans growing up and red Sox fans, and she’s a die hard Yankee fan.

And so we had a lot of fun just kind of with that conversation in general. And but I think it really, that episode shed light on kind of the stigmas within the stigmas, right? So there’s, there’s mental. You know, illnesses and issues in general, but then there are other things and, and, you know, Danna and on [01:12:00] your episode, right, we talked about how, you know, your childhood and, and all of those issues then became issues that created some of your other mental health issues.

And so with with Danny you, it came down to, you know, she needed to learn how to love herself at the end of the day. And it was something that she had never done before, but by putting herself in what she. Called this very toxic industry. It actually caused the, her, her I’m just gonna use the word self-loathing, but it to, to spiral even deeper down the, the bulimia, you know and, and other mental health issues, and it’s taken her quite a while.

You know, her, her story is unbelievable. She’s now created a broadcasting company for women’s voices. She has three very successful podcasts of her own. And she’s, you know, she’s an amazing young [01:13:00] woman and a very inspirational person. And yeah, I urge everybody to go out and, and listen to that episode.

And I think as, as you said, so, so eloquently Danna, and it, it really does give a, a very good, you know, overview of, of what mark and I are the message that we’re trying to get out there to everybody about our show and about the importance of, of speaking about these, these stigmatized and taboo 

Marc: topic.

One thing I’ll tease out of there too, that I found so telling about her story and it has great parallels to yours, even though the mental illness is different. Eric, all too often, people that we see that are hyper successful, but in some ways their mental illness is either attached to it or it allows them, right?

Like some of your OCD and those things actually helped you be very successful in parts of your life. You know, you and the modeling thing was such a sort of perfect metaphor for it, where it’s like, you know, she was essentially be, believe it to [01:14:00] support that career, but she couldn’t code so far deep into it that it affected how she looked except to keep her skinny.

As soon as it started to affect her hair or skin or her teeth, it was too. It’s like, okay. We’d like you to be sick, but just sick enough that you fit into the box. We want you to be in. And I think it’s such a powerful metaphor for sort of, and, and I’m watching Danna, in’s forehead crinkle. So I think he’s like, holy shit you, you allow this sort of like, you know, we allow this sort of linear aspect of like, oh, well they’re doing this and this.

And it allows them to get there. And it’s like, well, but long term, like what kind of effects would this have on the person, their mental health, their physical health. And, and I don’t think enough, we allow that kind of thought process in a work environment.

De’Vannon: Okay. Hey well I’m thankful for the models. I hope y’all keep doing it, keep partying [01:15:00] and stand up for yourself. And it it’s a good life, you know, if you can get into it and that’s you really wanna do, you know, it’s a shame that someone can’t do their art and do their craft without. Without all the bullshit.


Marc: Well, and, and, and Danny actually has just started a very good friend of hers. That was one of her favorite photographers is actually down in the area she’s living in now. And so she actually is starting to do a little bit again and, and I, I can only imagine she’ll be coming at it from a healthier, different aspect.

And I can’t wait to see what she does. She posted some stuff Anta the other day that, I mean, just beautiful photos. She’s a beautiful lady. And so it’s like, yeah, like that’s how it has to get done. You’re so right. 

Erik: Danna and the importance of that. And what you just said, mark and Danna, and what you were saying about being able to do your craft.

It’s it’s being able to do it. Under your terms. And, and I know for Danny, that’s exactly the road that she’s going down now, she’s, as mark said, she’s, you know, put up some incredible [01:16:00] posts over the past couple of weeks with with her photographer friend and she’s doing it on her terms you know, mark and I in, in the things that we’re doing now, whether it’s, you know, music or, or sports, I can tell you I’m doing them in a completely different way than I used to.

I used to be doing a lot of things for other people, but now I’m doing it on my terms. And so if, if, if there’s any big takeaway from let’s call it part, one of, of mark and Eric on sex drugs in Jesus, it’s it’s, you know, do things that make you feel good and, and help you find joy, but do them on your terms.

De’Vannon: Okay. I was gonna say any last words from you all. That was a pretty damn good, closer Eric. 

Marc: yep. We could just wrap it up there. 

De’Vannon: okay. Well with that y’all this is Eric DOA and Mark [01:17:00] Fernandez. They will be back again. So strictly speaking, we’re not closing this out, cause it will be continued. Their podcast is from survivor to thriver and get it wherever you listen to your podcast, they got a Facebook, a tick talk and an Instagram and then they are on LinkedIn too.

And so. Goodbye for now, guys, I’ve enjoyed yet another orgy with you and we will do it again. 

Erik: Yes. I can’t believe we’re gonna have our, our, that was gonna be good luck. Right? Cuz I used to do everything O C D wise in three. So it’s gonna be our third threesome when we do part two of this show. 

Marc: Well, and if we’re gonna go religious, we got the Trinity baby

De’Vannon: indeed. We do. Hallelujah tabernacle and praise. 

Erik: Shabbat Shalom. It’s almost it’s it’s it’s Shabbat for somebody right now in 

Marc: yeah. We’re yeah. We’re it’s yeah, we’re approaching may maybe maybe I’ll [01:18:00] sing one of the old hymns for you next time. 

De’Vannon: yeah, I use one of those fucking guitars. You got a thousand of ’em it’s like 

Marc: one of them mine.

One of them is mine. One of, yeah, but I, I could definitely pick one up and play it. If you guys listen to our podcast, the, the intro and outro music is actually Eric and I playing. It’s a 

De’Vannon: beautiful, beautiful flowy music. So all y’all have a good Friday. 

Marc: You as well. Yes. Much love Friday the 13th. I mean, it doesn’t matter when this airs, but it’s Friday the 13th today and mercury, and shit’s gonna get weird.

Be ready, stay 

De’Vannon: in your fucking.

Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the sex drugs in Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at SexDrugsAndJesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at [01:19:00] DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.

My name is De’Vannon and it’s been wonderful being your host today and just remember that everything is gonna be right.


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