Episode #69: Shooting Up Crystal Meth With Mom, Federal Prison Tea, Unusual Statistics & How The Nonprofit “Face It Together” Can Help, With Kattie Lail, Addiction Wellness Coaching Supervisor



Kattie was exposed to meth at a very young age. Both her parents struggled with meth addiction, which resulted in a very dysfunctional home. When she was arrested at 19, Kattie realized she didn’t want to continue going down the same path. She went on to be a counselor of high-risk populations and remained sober for a number of years. After a relapse – or recurrence of symptoms – she was arrested on federal charges and spent three years in prison. That’s when Kattie finally started to accept help from the people around her. She found a loving, supportive community to help her maintain wellness. 
Today, Kattie is married with a young son and two
Great Danes. Through her work as a peer coach and supervisor, she’s able to
give back and help others. She loves being there for her members and sees the
best in them, even when they can’t.


INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to):


·      Crystal Meth Stories 

·      Face It Together Nonprofit 

·      Better Alternatives In Addiction Recovery 

·      Getting High With Mom

·      The Lifestyle vs. The Drugs

·      How Getting Arrested Can Be Beneficial 

·      Federal Prison Tea

·      Trans Healthcare In Prison 

·      The Hypocrisy Of The Anonymous Movement

·      Unusual Statistics 





Website: https://www.wefaceittogether.org

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/face-it-together/

YouTube: https://bit.ly/3DHgW92

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/wefaceittogether

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/faceittogether/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/wefaceit2gether





Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.com

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LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannon

Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/

Email: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com





·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)


TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs


·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)




·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)



·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levin




·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com

·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net




·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org

·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org


·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg





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You’re listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De’Vannon and I’ll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what’s really going on in your life.

There is nothing off the table and we’ve got a lot to talk about. So let’s dive right into this episode.

De’Vannon: Katie Lail is an addiction, wellness coaching supervisor for a fabulous nonprofit called face it together. She sort of tell her story of her journey from learning how to use crystal methamphetamines. Y’all from her mama. Yeah. She learned how to use crystal meth from her mother y’all and then she became a drug dealer.

And now she’s dedicated her life to helping others find balance and peace. I’m super [00:01:00] excited about this nonprofit because they have alternative approaches to addiction recovery, and I think it’s so refreshing relative to what I was exposed to and everything else that’s out there. Please take a listen and go and share this knowledge with someone else. Hello, your beautiful souls out there. My name is Danna and Huber and welcome back to the sex drugs in Jesus podcast to have with me the lovely, wonderful miss Katie and believe L is your last name Le yep. Leo Katie L and she’s the addiction wellness coaching supervisor for a beautiful nonprofit that I recently discovered called.

We face it together and And she’s in Sioux falls where the temperature is only like 73 degrees today. And I’m here roasting in Baton Rouge with a lovely 1 0 5. And I love the heat for that. Katie, how are you today? [00:02:00] I’m 

Kattie: doing so good. I’m just really grateful to be here, to be able to spend this time with you to just kind of share my story and, you know, get to know you a little bit better through this process.

De’Vannon: Amen. And amen. And so in this episode, we’re gonna be talking a lot about crystal meth. Y’all Katie and I both have our addictions of fucking around with miss Tina. Ooh, that bitch. We’re gonna talk about the nonprofit face it together and towards the end, it’s a beautiful Nonprofit. It’s not like the anonymous movement.

Y’all all know I’ve been through crystal meth, anonymous, alcohol, alcoholics, anonymous, narcotics anonymous all the anonymous and everything like that. And I find to face it together to be more open minded, more yielding, more negotiable, more relevant, more 2022. And and not anti-women. [00:03:00] And so, and not overly religious and it’s not religious at all.

The word mindfulness came up in my research of this nonprofit rather than higher power. And so we’re gonna talk about that later on, but first we’re gonna talk about Katie to see what her motivation was to get into this and to see how this program helped her before now, she’s helping other people. And this is the most beautiful thing, the way it’s supposed to go.

We suffer. We get help that we realize that we got help. And we don’t take it for granted and we don’t, you know, you’re not, you didn’t go run off the live, a quiet, successful, happy, peaceful life you you’re stopping to give back and to help somebody else. And that that’s, that’s what it’s all the fuck about to me.

So tell us you know, about your, your history with the methamphetamines. I know this started in your home when you were super young, both your parents to talk to us about that. Yeah. [00:04:00] So 

Kattie: it’s funny because like, thinking back, like both of my parents. Use drugs. They were both IB meth addict as well.

And I didn’t know that like when I was younger, like I didn’t quite comprehend that, but like, in my mind, like I remember being really young and in my mind, like I knew that that’s what I wanted to do. I wanted to do drugs. Like I just knew that I wasn’t comfortable in my own skin. Like, I, I just always wanted that escape.

I didn’t really understand what that meant. But you know, things kind of progressed. And, and I did when I was probably like 13, 14, I did start to kind of catch on like, oh, I think my parents are drug addicts. Like, I think that’s actually what’s going on here. And I remember, you know, being 13 and I found meth in like a, like a big ball of meth in my mom’s closet.

And I, you know, I brought it up to her. She goes, oh, I found that in the couch. I thought that was yours. I’ve been meaning to talk to you about it. And I’m like, this is the first time [00:05:00] I’ve ever seen meth. Like, this is your approach to that. So. It was just always like a really like interesting situation growing up for me.

But it was around that time that my mom kind of got really outta control. She started taking off, she would be gone for days at a time. And she’d leave me with my younger siblings who are six and eight years younger than me. And, you know, I often was, you know, their primary caregiver. And when you’re, you know, 13, 14, you don’t have resources.

You don’t have anybody to reach out to and be like, Hey, , I’m struggling. Can you help us get some food? Or we don’t have electricity. Like, it’s like, you just play it. Cool. Because you don’t want DSS coming in and, and taking you because that was always like the biggest fear, you know, was being taken away.

In retrospect, maybe it would’ve been a blessing, but at the time it was terrifying. But going through that, I, I remember I was 15 years old. [00:06:00] And, you know, the only time my mom would ever really hang out with me is if we were partying together. And so, you know, we would drink together and whatever, and we were hanging out at her boyfriend’s house and I and she was using meth.

And so now she was openly using meth in front of me. And I just said, Hey, can I get high with you? And she’s like, eh, kind of like hem to nod. And she’s like, all right, well, let’s do it. And so we got high for my first time. She’d just gotten some money for student loans. She took me to a casino in Minnesota.

We spent two days partying at the casino. She snuck me in, it was like, The coolest experience of my life, because I got to hang out with my mom and like, see this lifestyle that she was living. And then, you know, like coming down for the first time and I was like, I’m never gonna do that again. That sucked

But as it turned out, like it, it had already gotten a hold of me. Within a few weeks of trying meth, I was shooting up meth. You know, I, I was in high [00:07:00] school and had a few other friends that I used with, but the primary person that I used with was my mom. And that was kind of the beginning of where my drug use started.

And so I spent the next few years getting in trouble, spending time in like juvenile detention centers, getting sent to boot camps, getting out, trying to do well, but just going right back to the same old thing. So that was where it all began for me. 

De’Vannon: Okay, thank you for that breakdown. Tell me, so you started shooting up a few, few weeks after you first did it.

So the first time you did it, did you smoke it? Did you swung, like how did you take it the first time I 

Kattie: snorted it? Yep. We just, yep. We did lines all the way up to Minnesota. We stopped at every bathroom, did a line off the back of every toilet that we could find. So 

De’Vannon: I was a good old days. yeah. Tell me when you, so you were doing this to hang out with your mom.

Do you think that [00:08:00] well, like you said, it might have been better if you hadn’t been taken away. So would you say that you really got into drugs more so for the community, you know, rather than the narcotic itself, Yeah, 

Kattie: can, that’s an interesting question. And I, I don’t know that I’ve ever really reflected on that, but I do remember like the first few times I got high, I was like, I don’t even know if I enjoy this, but I enjoyed the lifestyle that was attached to it because there was always people there that you always had a purpose.

Like you always had somebody like knocking on your door. And that felt good to me. You know, I was a shy kid. Like I was just like desperate for that attention. And like, to have this like just instant group of people that were your people, you know, that felt good to 

De’Vannon: me. Bingo. That is one of the main points that I always try to drive home when people get, like, when they don’t understand people who use [00:09:00] drugs or for God’s sakes, they get judgey about us.

One of my big things that I, that I try to, to get inside of people’s heads is that it’s not always about. The dope when I was homeless. And when I was on drugs, myself, there was so much community out there on those streets. And then when you, whenever I see documentaries, a lot of times on television or, or in the media, in the news or whatever, it’s always showing like the meth head with no teeth and their skin peeling off running across the field naked.

But I’m like that, that is a thing. Absolutely. But that’s not the only thing, you know, sometimes there’s a, when I was homeless alone, I couldn’t find food anywhere else. I would, I could go to a trap house. I could go to a meth house and they would feed me when they turned me away from the VA. And I couldn’t go to my siblings.

you know, mm-hmm, , you know, so it’s not, you know, when I got kicked out of Lakewood church in Houston, Texas, you know, that ripped my community. and like, exactly like your words [00:10:00]were when I found the drugs again, or when they were offered to me again, I began to accept them. And I had a purpose again, as a dealer I felt wanted, I was valued, you know, all of those things went along with that.

So it’s not really just the drugs. Mm. When, when you first shot, do you, do, do you remember like the first time you did the IV drug uses and you injected it, did you do it to yourself? Did someone else do it to you? And do you remember how it felt? So 

Kattie: the crazy thing was like, I was so afraid of needles.

Like I was like, I’m not gonna shoot up like that. I’m not going to, but the thing that got me is like, my mom was shooting up with all my friends and I’m like, well, fuck that. Like, I don’t wanna be left out. Like, I don’t wanna be the only one like this. And so I was like, I’m just gonna try it. And it was actually my friend’s boyfriend and.

I let him do it for me the first time, but it was after the [00:11:00] first time I was doing it by myself, I just picked it up right away. It seemed more comfortable for me than, you know, letting somebody else poke around in my arm. So,

De’Vannon: well, you’re bold with it. You know, I, it took a while for me. I let the guys do it first and then eventually, you know, I transitioned and after fucking up mini veins and I got, you know, all these scars and shit you know, then I took to it and oddly enough, it felt like a sense of accomplishment learning how to inject.

So , you know, I, 

Kattie: I think for me, like when the first time that I had to go to treatment, like as a kid, like, I didn’t so much like, fantasize about the drugs, but like I fantasized about like how badass, like I felt that I was able to shoot up for myself when I was 16 years old, you know, like, that’s the thing that kept rolling through my mind.

I was like, I don’t care if it’s just water, like, I’ll just do it. Like I didn’t, I didn’t even care at that point. You know, I just felt like, [00:12:00] so I understand that sense of accomplishment. Like it felt, I don’t know. I was weirdly proud of it.

De’Vannon: Me too. Like I totally, I totally get it.

Okay. Now you said you first went to treatment just now at the age of 15. Yeah. 

Kattie: I’m not exactly sure. It was either 15 or 16. I got sent away for my first time and I, I went to treatment for like a nine month, like a nine month, like boot camp. Treatment thing. So I was like remanded to the state. I was there for nine months, got out and was sent to live with my grandparents after that.

De’Vannon: So, yeah. So I’m gonna circle back around to like your initial treatments in a second here. So you, I read, so you first got arrested the first time when you were 19 mm-hmm and then later on something [00:13:00] else happened. Tell, talk to me about that first arrest at 19. 

Kattie: So that was the eye opener for me.

Cause I mean, I’d been arrested before, but it was like you’re young. You don’t have like any like charges you’re not in jail. You have like a whole supportive team trying to like help you out. But when I was 19, I got arrested. For my first, first meth charge. And I remember going to county jail and you just, I had to sit there for six months, like not knowing like what my sentence was gonna be like when my next court date was gonna be.

And honestly, like just having nobody give a shit that you’re in distress. There’s nobody there trying to help you or make your situation better anymore. You’re an adult. And it was during that time that my mom moved to Denver and I just felt like super abandoned by her. And like, we had a whole bunch of like just bad experiences leading up to me going to jail.

But that was like the first [00:14:00] time in my life that I like, like got some perspective and I’m like, I don’t wanna be fucking doing this anymore. Like I don’t wanna grow up and be living the lifestyle that my mom is living when I’m her age. Like I don’t, I don’t want this. So that was the first time that I.

I wanted to quit using. And I, I had some like marginal success after that, but like I had no idea how to not use. Like, that was my lifestyle. That was all that I was aware of. 

De’Vannon: Okay. And then I see that you were arrested three years later and then this time it was federal. So what happened? 

Kattie: So it was actually quite a bit longer than three years later.

I so after jail I gotten to a relationship with a guy who. I loved desperately. And I was also very dependent on and he wanted to be sober when we got together, but that was kind of like, not, not that wavered quite a bit. And so, you know, I would do [00:15:00] really well and then he would go back to using, and I would just jump off that cliff with him every time.

Like I was just like, you know, some, so gung-ho to like maintain this relationship. And we were together for almost nine years. And then we had a series of, you know, just events. We, you know, we tried to have kids weren’t able to went through all that and, you know, so I left him and it was after I left him, like I was just hurt and I just felt, had felt like so out of control for so long, and like I had been sober for, you know, about three years at that time.

And I relapsed and from the day that I relapsed, I was. Until like six months later, that was when I got arrested. But that’s when I started selling drugs and that’s a whole nother beast in itself. And, and I don’t think I would’ve ever quit if I wouldn’t have gotten arrested by the federal government.

De’Vannon: [00:16:00] Yeah. It’s interesting. How you’re saying so much interesting stuff that I’m taking my notes I can keep up with. Well, traveled of knowledge. It’s interesting how that, how that works. When SWAT kicked my door in and came and nabbed at me when I was selling drugs, if there was an odd sense of relief to, to interrupt the, the trajectory that I was on was your.

Arrest that dramatic. Was there a SWAT team? You know, how did they get you? Tell me, bring us into the room. 

Kattie: okay. So like, I, I had people that were getting arrested and like, you know, people were like calling you, like saying, Hey, just so you know, when I got arrested, they were asking me about you. Like they wanted information on you.

So they’re, they’re, they’re coming. They’re going to, they’re going to pick you up at some point. So I knew, but and so I’d been getting stuff in the mail. I’d just gotten a big shipment in the mail and I’m like, all I gotta get rid of all [00:17:00] this. But I I’d already gotten rid of my scale. I’d gotten rid of all the stuff.

And like, of course I didn’t wanna like rip myself off. So I still had a whole bunch of heroin and a whole bunch of meth in my, in my house. And I was with the guy that I was seeing at the time. And we were just gonna kind of like dump it off the next day. And so we were literally packing our bags, but, you know, we’d just gotten this good meth in the, in the mail.

So we’re also higher than a fricking kite, really struggling to like get out the door, get going. So I think when they came to arrest us, we we’d been having sex all night. I’m pretty sure that he was maybe wearing like a devil’s outfit and like they knocked on the door and like, I’m just like trying to pull it together quick.

I had every intention to answer the door, but you know, I’m like, hold on, hold on. But it didn’t matter. They kicked in the door, came in guns blazing. It was a whole like federal SWAT team, the whole thing. And [00:18:00] it was, I mean, it was scary. Like it was surreal for sure. 

De’Vannon: I’m here for the devil costume.

Kattie: that whole night, like, it was just too much, but yeah, I wish that I would’ve like if I could have had like, cameras on, like what that whole situation looked like. I, I don’t even know. I can’t even imagine 

De’Vannon: mm-hmm well, maybe you’ll write a book one day and we can all read in great details. right. I heard you say heroin.

So were you using heroin too? Or were you meth? Exclusive? 

Kattie: I was meth exclusive. Like my, my sisters used heroin. A lot of people that I knew used heroin and I, I sold it for a short period of time, like, because of the profit margin. I’d never tried it. I was going to at one point, but that same guy that I was dating, like he had been.

We’d been up for a [00:19:00] few days doing meth. And he was just gonna do a little bit of heroin and like, and that was the day that I was gonna try it, but I remember him shooting it up and like, I remember him just like falling back and like all his muscles like tightening up and it just scared me so bad. Like it was just like, cause like, I don’t think I can do this.

Like I just don’t need to add another thing to my list, another issue that I’m trying to fight. So I’m really grateful that I didn’t end up trying it. Cause I, I do think that would’ve been another beast for me, but yeah, so I never tried it. I did sell it for just maybe the last few weeks there kind of, I added that to my repertoire.


De’Vannon: yeah, it sucks when they kicked the door in man. So which federal prison were you in? 

Kattie: So I went to FCI Waka, which is kind of in the middle of nowhere in Minnesota, but closest thing to where I’m at in South 

De’Vannon: Dakota. So bring me behind the walls of the [00:20:00] prison, because I’m getting oranges, the new black going on, you know, where you like the little you know, Piper running around in there trying to fix shit for everybody, you know, tell us, I want some dramatic prison story trying, stab each other with the saw off toothbrushes.

I wanna give it all to me so 

Kattie: that I was like, I was, I really thought like the one thing that I thought that I was gonna be able to access is cigarettes. I was like, at least I’ll be able to find cigarettes there, but there was not one cigarette to be had anywhere. So that was like a true bummer to me.

But. And there was the biggest thing in the prison I was at was like relationships. You know, everybody had girlfriends, girlfriend drama, day one. I was like going down to check out like the rec area. And they had like a really big, nice gym. They had like a track and I’m like in the gym, I’m kind of walking on the treadmill.[00:21:00]

And then I see these two girls, like down at the other end of the gym and I’m like, oh cool. They’re working out together. And then then I was like, oh no, actually they’re fingering each other right in the middle of the gym. So that was like day one of prison. And like, I , there was a lot of that. A lot of relationships, there was somebody twerking around every corner that you went down like, and for me, like, it was, it was honestly just.

A culture shock. Like I’m from South Dakota. Like I hadn’t been around people like from big cities often. And so like, it was a little bit overwhelming for me, like walking in, like having all of these different types of people, but I met some amazing people in person that I really stayed in touch with.

And we had a really interesting dynamic in our prison because there is a program there for people who are wanting to transition from female to male. And so [00:22:00] they would send them to our prison and they would get like the hormone therapy, you know, as long as they were going through like the counseling process, which is great.

And I think it’s a really cool program, but having a male population inside the prison just adds a whole nother level of drama to, to the

De’Vannon: prison. Mm, so much drama . So any killings, any stabbings, any murders that happened behind there? 

Kattie: There was no killings while I was there. There was, there was often attacks.

Like we didn’t do like soap in a sock. It was a lock in a sock. So they’d fill up a sock and people with locks. So that happened multiple times while I was there. There was, yeah, no killings while I was there, but definitely I was there with a lot of people who had done some killings. I remember [00:23:00] just like maybe like day three or four.

Some lady came down and asked me for sugar and I was like, oh yeah, I have sugar. And she left and it was fine. And I was asking my roommates. I was like, yeah, what’s she here for? And they’re like, oh, murder. And I was like, oh, and they’re like, yeah, if you ask her how many people that she killed, she’ll say one too many.

De’Vannon: You might be next, I suppose, but , 

Kattie: it’s like, well, I’m glad I gave her the sugar. 

De’Vannon: right. She might have got cut down over a cube. How was the food? 

Kattie: Not as bad as I thought it would be. It was just the repetition that killed you because you know, every Wednesday was a hamburger day. Every Thursday was chicken day.

Every Friday. It was just the same all the time. But I will say that people, when they have a lot of time on their hands, they get really creative with the commissary food. People were cooking on the irons. Like it [00:24:00] was just crazy. 

De’Vannon: yeah. I remember that when I was locked up, this guy, he took like a whole bunch of my honey buns from commissary and made it look like a seven layer.

Kattie: Yeah, I think my favorite thing was people made potato logs, which I can’t even imagine how many calories are in this thing, but like, you take a bag of potato chips and you like moisten it and then like, turn it into like a paste. And then you put like meat and cheese and whatever, like in the middle of it.

And then you wrap these potato chips around it and then you put it in hot water. So the inside gets all melty. It’s gotta be like 5,000 calories and like one and you just eat it to yourself. But you know, the, the creativity behind that is something 

De’Vannon: mm-hmm . Were there any drugs and or gangs? So 

Kattie: the prison that I was at was actually a pretty well managed prison.

So this was often the place that people went to when they had got like [00:25:00] disciplinary actions in other prisons, like to kind of like straighten them out. Cause there wasn’t a lot of opportunity for like drugs and things like that to get in while I was there, I think it started getting worse. Like after, as I was getting ready to leave, people were getting like drug sent in on paper and things like that, but yeah.

De’Vannon: Okay. And I find it cool that you said that they, that they were providing like the hormone therapy and everything for people transitioning. So is this for people who got locked up while they were in the middle of transition or was this for females who decided they wanted to transition while they were already there?

Kattie: I am not sure. I don’t think that. I don’t think that they had to have been going through the process beforehand. I think that if there was that need and that desire and they wanted to do that, like, I think that that was made accessible to them as long as they went through like the therapy program that, that coincides with that.

De’Vannon: Right. Cuz as I understand it anywhere you, anywhere you’re at no matter locked up or [00:26:00] free, you can’t just go transition. They make you go through, I think rightfully so. See some mental health therapists to be sure is what you wanna do, that you calculated the emotional and physical cost and toll and things like that.

And then you have that throughout the whole thing. That was one of the most interesting things when I was watching, you know, orange is a new black. Of course, Laverne Cox played, you know, the the trans, you know, character in there. And there was a whole thing, you know, with her getting her you know, her hormones and everything like that and denying it.

And it was like a whole shit show. But that’s so cool that, you know, I mean, fuck, you know, so this means that some people have better access to trans healthcare behind prison walls than they do out in the fucking community. 

Kattie: yeah. Yeah. I definitely thought that many times, for sure. And like, they won’t take ’em, they don’t go all the way through like the operation procedures or anything, but they will do like the therapy and [00:27:00] everything up to that.

So, I mean, like for some of those people that were going through that, like that was probably like a blessing that came along with going through prison cuz you sure didn’t get it in the dental care. So. 

De’Vannon: What do you mean by dental care? Like they didn’t give y’all dental care behind there. Oh, 

Kattie: I mean, they did kind of but like, there was no like crowns or anything like that.

Like if you had a sore tooth and like, they couldn’t just like plug it up with a filling, like they were taking your tooth out. So I did lose a few teeth in prison. We got ’em replaced. It’s all good. How 

De’Vannon: long were you in prison for? I was in for three years. Okay. You were in for three years. Okay. Mm-hmm

And for you, those of you who have not been arrested darlings, like one day behind jail prison wall feels like an eternity because, you know, think about it. You can’t just like walk over to the fridge and get a Sprite or a glass of wine. You can’t go. Outside at will or believes I couldn’t where I was at.

We didn’t go outside at all for months, [00:28:00] but you know, you just can’t like, go do what the fuck you wanna do when you wanna do it and shit like that. And so three years in the long ass time, so kudos to you for making it out of there. You’re a thug ass bitch about my book. You got that mad bread. , you’re definitely, you’re definitely about that life.

Kattie: I was about that life and then I went to prison. I’m like, definitely not, not doing that again. Done. 

De’Vannon: Okay. So you get outta prison. So you have how many felonies at this point? So 

Kattie: I had gotten a pardon for my first felony. Because I had, I went to school, got my degree. I was doing addictions counseling prior to my relapse and ending up selling drugs again.

So I I’d done a lot of really hard work, but I was still just like engaging in this unhealthy relationship. So that was my only felony I had at that time. [00:29:00] So I got that removed. And then, so now I only have one felony, so that’s a blessing, you know, 

De’Vannon: but right. Cause I think it’s cool that you were, you know, sitting where you’re at.

Well, you know, with gainful employment, me personally, it was a bitch. I have four felonies so that none of them are part and there right there smack dab on my record. Even the one that the grand jury threw out still shows up. And even though it says it dismissed, it’s still there. And so, so did you find it difficult to find employment after you got out?

Did you know what was life after you got out of prison? 

Kattie: Yeah. It was a mixed bag for me. So you know, in addition to like the employment piece, which I will talk about, but I I’d gotten married a week before I went to prison. And so I came home and I was married and then I’m living with my husband for the first time in my life.

And like, that was like, what, like, what is this? Like, I don’t know that I was prepared for all that. So that was like a huge adjustment. And like, I kind of had this thing [00:30:00] in my mind. Like once I get out of prison, everything’s going to be okay. But I really struggled. Like, I think I had like a six month period of just like, like an adjustment disorder, like type situation.

Like I was just really like emotional and really struggling to like, adjust to like having normal. When I first got out, I worked at a restaurant for a while that some friends of mine own and it was a great experience, but like even there, like I just remember being like, oh my gosh, like all these, like young people are just gonna think that I’m up this pile of shit.

Cause I just got out of prison and like, they’re, they’re just gonna make these assumptions about me, but everybody was so kind and so great. And like just really like supported me and rallied behind me, which really helped, like with rebuilding some of that like self confidence and like just in who I was.

And then a few years after I’d been out of prison, I’m like, okay, well I have a bachelor’s degree. Like I have like go to work history before all this happened. Like I I’m thinking if I go try to work for like, you [00:31:00] know, Like a social services or like, you know, I don’t know, like human services, like where people are helping people that hopefully they’ll be forgiving and like, understand that, like I went through this thing, but like that I’m actually really reliable and it wasn’t the case.

Like I had so many doors just like slammed in my face, the minute that they found out that I had a felony. And like, just even it, they just didn’t even give you a chance. And that was like the coolest thing, because I was like hot on the pursuit and I just really wanted to do something where I’m giving back, because that’s where my passion is.

And that’s what I’m good at doing. And I ran across this, the ad for the job at face it together. And like the first thing I thought, like, even when reading the description about the, the organization, I was like, this has to be a joke. Like this sounds too good to be true. And I remember like doing my interview and I was like, okay.

So I just wanna cuz and I had too many doors outta my face, so I just wanted to be like open right up the bat. [00:32:00] And I remember just saying like, okay, so I have this felony, I did this time in prison. Like I struggled with this Matthews, like, this is my story, whatever. And they’re like, that’s great. Like, you have so much experience.

You’re gonna help so many people. And I was like, oh my gosh, if they don’t hire me, I’m gonna die. And they did. And it was like such an amazing, beautiful experience. And that’s how I knew I was exactly where I was supposed to be. 

De’Vannon: And how long have you been there now? 

Kattie: So I have been here for about a year and a half 

De’Vannon: now.

Okay. And, and how long by your definition would you consider yourself to be a person who was you know, in control of themselves with reference to drug use? 

Kattie: So it’s been this January will be seven years for me since I’ve used any substances. I quit using the day that they kicked in my door. I had a year on pretrial release.

And during that year, [00:33:00] I was just scared. And I just, like, I just knew that, like, this wasn’t what I wanted to do. And that was when, like, I surrendered myself to like healing and like reaching out for help developing that support group and, you know, changing my life. 

De’Vannon: So now you said you, you first went to treatment when you were 15.

So that tells me that you had, you’ve been to treatment all kinds of treatments several different times. So talk to me about the treatment experiences that you have had and then what was different, cause you were a client of. Together. Were you, were you 

Kattie: ever treated? I was, no. I actually was never a client of face it together.

So I, when I went, like I went through the 12 step programs and so like, I wish that I would’ve been able to have something like face it together because I think it would’ve changed the whole trajectory because every time that I went to treatment, it was like, you have this narrow path and you have to follow this narrow path and this is what recovery is.

And so there wasn’t any like, leeway for anything else. So like, when I, you know, like when I wanted to do things [00:34:00] my way, or like when I didn’t like connect with this higher power that they thought that I should connect with, like, it’s like, I just started like disassociating, like pushing it away. And so I think I went through that process almost every time, you know, like I found that support as a good group of people, but like when I wasn’t fitting on that path, like I just felt like I wasn’t welcome anymore.

De’Vannon: I have to say, unfortunately, that I concur, I don’t care for the anonymous movement at all, because it’s, it’s old, it’s antiquated. It’s not something that’s updated to like the year 20, 22, you know, and all of those anonymous Mo programs are based off of alcoholics anonymous and it’s not like they are super original and alcoholics anonymous is an old ass book and it’s very like anti-women, and it’s very, very pro you know, like God and stuff like that.

And so it’s not really something that I think is really for most [00:35:00] people, but like you said, it’s all that was presented. It’s all that was presented to me, you know, and everything like that, you know? And so, and I never cared for it. And then eventually I realized that it was a fear based program. and that they’re basically trying to coerce you into remaining sober out of theory, gonna lose everything and every oh, will be, you know, it’s like chicken, little, the sky is falling no matter what happens, chaos and catastrophe.

And I’m all like, goddammit. You know, now I’m back in the, it made me felt like I was back in the church or in the military again, where any little thing you do is chaos in catastrophe and very, very hyperbolized and very over the top. And, and I’m all like, this is you know, a use of negative energy to control the masses and it, and I don’t care for it.

And I don’t think it’s productive in a long term. I think the program becomes an addiction in and of itself. It’s all over with people. 

Kattie: I it’s funny that you [00:36:00] reference it that way, that fear based thing, because I think I still carry some of that fear with me. Like, even though, like, I I’ve outgrown the program, but like that fear, like when something starts to go a little bit wrong in my life, I’m like, oh, here I go again, it’s a downward spiral.

Like it’s all downhill from here. Like, and it’s not like that. Like, it’s, that’s not what my healing journey has been. Like. Like I, I have back steps, you know, that’s life. That’s how it works. But like, I’m still like on this forward trajectory, like I just really truly believe that people, that people are always striving to be better.

And it’s just everybody’s own process. It’s not like we just need to hold on. So tightly to this thing to be okay. And we lose our individuality in that process. 

De’Vannon: Right. And the statistics don’t show that the anonymous movement has been all that damn successful. And then I was watching a documentary. I can’t remember which one had this on it.

I was watching one called the history of mental illnesses on [00:37:00] PBS, which is divine grade four, four or five hours of your life to spin right there. And another one is called how to change your mind, which is currently on Netflix. Both of them are free. Everyone check them out. Well, I guess if you have a Netflix subscription, but PBS is, is free.

Then one of them were saying that one of the guys who helped to start or started the AA alcoholics anonymous movement, actually used mushrooms and sell Sabin to break his addiction before he put out the AA program. But didn’t tell anyone about his little room experiment, his little Shroom trip mm-hmm

And so . You knew of this 

Kattie: already. It’s fine. My husband literally was just telling me about this the other day. He just got done watching how to change your mind. That’s the one that it’s from. And, and I was like, oh, like, that was definitely something that I never learned, like in going to school and learning all about bill w and the whole thing, like nobody ever mentioned that.

De’Vannon: No, they didn’t. And it makes me just really angry [00:38:00] because I’m like, so you got this very marvelous deliverance and you used mushrooms to do it, but you didn’t tell anyone else what you did was you went and spun a narrative that was very political and very religious, you know, and I’m sure profited from it somehow.

And so that’s not cool, man. And so that makes me feel like I can’t trust anything else. The anonymous movement has put out because you weren’t transparent. Mm-hmm , you know, And now the, you know, the research is showing us that we can use LSD and Mein IOSCO, you know, whatever you wanna call it in shrooms and MDMA and all of these things therapeutically, as we did back before, I believe it was FDR created this hideous war against drugs, you know?

So, so I just wanted to just say that about the anonymous movement. I don’t care for it. I did appreciate the, the self reflection and the best thing I took out of it was that not everything has to [00:39:00] be about me. Hmm. That, that was like the, my key takeaway that has nothing to do with me shooting up crystal meth though.

But, you know, you know, like the therapy and the talking was great, but it didn’t really do much for my drug use

Kattie: for me, because I will say I did take a lot out of it and you’re right. It is that self reflect. But the thing, the piece that was like, Important for me is the people like that’s what I needed is I needed people. You know, coming out of that, because that was a thing that was keeping me going in my use was the people.

And so when you are trying to quit that, and you don’t have any people, like that’s a place you can go and you are welcome. Do you know? And you do have people and support in somebody that you can call. So that was, that was my biggest takeaway from, from the whole thing is just having that place where you can go cry and be like, well, life falling.

And they’re gonna be like, you know, oh, we got you back. So, I mean, [00:40:00] there are a few good things that come from it, for sure. 

De’Vannon: A few, a few. Yes . So now we’re gonna get more granular and talk about face it together. We wanna talk about particularly, you know, how it parallel, how it’s different from the anonymous movement.

And mm-hmm, referencing y’all the anonymous movement a lot because when people think about. Drug recovery anonymous is the first thing that pops up in most people’s heads. Mm-hmm, not just like harm reduction or really anything, you know, alternative or the use of psychedelics is relatively new compared to how old the anonymous movement is in the foothold that it has on the world.

Mm-hmm I liked reading the rational recovery book, which was written as the antithesis of the anonymous movement. I ain’t saying I agree with everything in rational recovery, but I do find it to be more rational and more. And more practical. See what I did there. And you know, , [00:41:00] it’s more practical and down the earth and just like real people shit than the anonymous movement.

And I don’t feel like they’re trying to cast a spell on me and, you know, voodoo my mind and shit like the anonymous movement. So face it together. And of course y’all wanna put the website to this and the show notes, but if you’re just burning hear right now, I’m gonna tell you it’s www dot. We face it together.org and they’re on Facebook, Instagram, Instagram, Twitter, shit, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, Twitter, and YouTube.

And so, so you you had said like earlier, like you take steps back. Some, sometimes that’s a part of life. So when I was re rereading on your website on the face, it together, website y’all have a different term for relapse. It’s some other kind of way you describe it. What is that? 

Kattie: Recurrence of symptoms is a big one that we use.

Yeah. Recurrence of use recurrence of symptoms. We work really hard to break the [00:42:00] stigma and some of that, like, I, I just feel like there’s a lot of harmful language that’s coming. That’s came out of like the anonymous movements and you know, the other you know, recovery type things. And so we, we really try to break that, like we don’t, we’re not gonna make anybody say you’re an addict.

Like, because that’s, you know, like that’s such a label and it’s such a, a harmful thing. And so we really try to switch that to, you know, I’ve struggled with an addiction or I’ve struggled, struggled with problematic use, or I would like to address my use. Like we don’t wanna label anybody. We don’t want to make it seem like we try not to use.

Clean or dirty because that’s like an indication that like, if you’re one way it’s good and if you’re the other way that it’s bad. And so we just, I really, we try to be very aware of the language that we 

De’Vannon: use. You’re fucking right. I didn’t say that shit for very long, even when I was fucking with the anonymous movement, because it just sounded like a negative manifestation.

Like isn’t the whole point for [00:43:00] me to, to stop being an addict. But are you gonna make me stand here and call myself that just before I can speak? You know, that’s very, cult-like like, you can talk, but you must say this negative thing about yourself first, so we can keep you under our thumb, you know? Cause heaven forbid you really get healed because we won’t have a program anymore.

Mm-hmm , you know, they’re just like the church, they like churches and you know, these, these programs don’t really want everyone to. Heal because then they would cease to exist. You know, you really don’t need to go to a church to learn about God, or at least you might wanna start off that way, but there’s no reason to do that for the rest of your life.

You know, education, you know, and these in the anonymous movement is no different. I refuse, I would say something like, hi, my name is the van and I’m an addict in recovery or something like that. I had to throw some sort of positivity into it because I refuse to just be like, I am an addict and I will always be an addict.

Another thing that fucked with me was that, you know, my higher power is the Trinity and of course everyone can pick their own higher power. Be it [00:44:00] the duck flying in the fucking sky, the chair, you know, your tits or whatever can be your higher power. I’m like, so if I believe in Jesus Christ, he can heal anything.

Why the fuck can he heal me of being an addict? And you know, you know, it was just, there’s so much shit that has never made sense, but that, that relapse shit. You know, to me, why can’t it just be, I made a mistake or I did, or made a mistake in terms of I did what I had intended not to do. Mm-hmm I don’t see why it has to be catastrophe, you know, or it has to be this whole like downward spiral, just because you did a thing.

Mm-hmm what I learned from my hip therapy training, cuz I’m a licensed heist as well. Was. You have to be careful of the constructs you set up in your subconscious because you’re setting yourself up for that. And when you’re exposed, every time you stand there, if you call yourself an addict and you listen to the rhetoric, that if you use one thing, you’re gonna end up in an institution or you’re gonna die, you’re gonna jail, you’re gonna lose everything.

And the only reason you have anything you have [00:45:00] is because of the program, you know, you know, is what they try to tell you. And I’m all like our program wasn’t there when I got this job. So I don’t know about that. You know, so, and so, you know, and so I’m saying all this to say, if you reinforcing your head, that relapse is the most terrible thing in the world, the way they want you to be fearful of it, when it happens and it kind of tends to happen.

If you believe it must be catastrophe and chaos, then it, it will be catastrophe and chaos. Not because it had to be, but because you’ve already set that up to happen. So you can say something now that’s my, 

Kattie: no, yeah, no, like, just talk about the power of language. Like we that’s missed so often. And like, like just the way that this language has been affecting people, like how many times in 12, seven meetings did you hear?

If you’re not in recovery you’re in relapse. Like it’s like either one or the other, [00:46:00] there’s no middle ground and that scary as shit. Like, okay. So what do I need to do to make sure that I’m in whatever this recovery thing is and like buy their guidelines and I need to do all these things like exactly.

Right. Otherwise I’m screwed. And that was like my fear for a long time. And I think with face it together I, my view on addiction, like, even though, like, I didn’t necessarily like subscribe to like this 12 step thing before, and I knew there had to be something else, like my view on addiction and wellness and all of that has grown so much since I’ve been here.

But like, I think, you know, the, they always talk about like the, the cycle of the stages of change, you know? And so you go through this and then you get to maintenance and then after maintenance it’s relapse, and then it’s, you know, pre, contemplation, contemplation, and you’re just always going in this cycle.

But like, we believe there’s an exit. like, we believe that you can get out of this cycle. Like it’s a cycle that you’re in and then you heal. Like we believe in that healing, which I think is something that really sets us [00:47:00] apart. 

De’Vannon: I’m gonna read a, a section from your website that I feel like is really, really relevant right now.

And from the website that says that the world has one data point for addiction, wellness, sobriety, And y’all on the website. Say we don’t buy that. Mm-hmm follows. You say we focus on all aspects of life. We ask our members, are you more hopeful? Is your employment more stable? Are things better at home?

These and many other measurements prove that our members are doing better in doing better, not just being sober is what gets people well. So when I read this beautiful statement here, it sounds like a person could be. And you know, when we say harm reduction, that means not stopping all drugs. It means doing them less and less and less until eventually you you’re either off of them or you come to a place that you feel like you’re in control again.

And so it seems like maybe that allowance is being made, made here. It seems like it’s not [00:48:00]really defined what sobriety is for each individual. So tell us about this state. 

Kattie: Yeah. I, I think that’s really powerful. Like, so anytime we have somebody come in the door, we have them take our assessment and our assessment.

Like it doesn’t ask anything about like, what is your drug use? Like now? Like how much are you using? Like, that is not what we think it’s important to measure. Oftentimes I believe that the use is a symptom of whatever the actual issue is. So let’s focus on those issues. Let’s focus on you as a person, let’s figure out what it is that your goals are, you know?

So, Hey, like I’m using meth. Like, I, I would like to quit using meth, but I, I don’t want to quit smoking pot at this point. Like that, that is, I feel like I’m okay with that. Okay. That’s great. Let’s work with that. Or, Hey, I’m drinking. I’m drinking way more than I would like to. I don’t wanna quit. This is what I would like my drinking to look like.

All right. Let’s work on that. Let’s we just [00:49:00] really wanna hear like. What it is that the person wants, and we want to be able to help them accomplish that goal rather than saying, this is, this is a way that you succeed. We honor that success for everybody’s really different. 

De’Vannon: So how this difference from the anonymous movement y’all is like, so you have like a sponsor and all of this, and they’re very, like, you can’t do any drugs at all, period.

Mm-hmm, , I’m, you know, I’ve never stopped drinking my wine and everything like that. And, you know, I would, you know, my sponsor didn’t really ride my ass about that or nothing like that. He would not, for instance, have been open minded to be somebody who smoked weed. I’m like weed is quite legal these days, but you know, the anonymous program last I checked has not changed their language to say that it’s okay.

They don’t give a fuck what’s going on, medically, you know? And I don’t foresee a a day. Can you imagine the anonymous movement saying Hey, shrooms are okay. And LSD is okay. And MDMA [00:50:00] is okay. That would just everything that they stand for. Mm-hmm but I felt like those people were like so full of shit because.

People, you know, you go to these meetings and they’re chainsmoking cigarettes outside. And each one of them has their own personal pot of coffee that they can’t function without. And you gonna tell me to stop meth, but you can’t go a day without smoking two packs of cigarettes and drinking a gallon of coffee.

Kattie: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. For sure. And then as you were talking about before, like, you know, they’re like, oh, I didn’t make it to a meeting all week and now I’m not okay. Like that, that has become their addiction. They, they’re not learning how to like function its individuals in society. They’re learning how to become dependent on meetings and they’re learning how to become dependent on, you know, coffee cigarettes, all of that.

De’Vannon: And we’re gonna circle back to get on statistics, a little heavier in a couple of minutes, but since you mentioned [00:51:00] that, you know, you feel like some time, but oftentimes a lot of the issues are not the drugs itself, but the problems when I was reviewing the statistics that you have on your website, which is also a very unique approach that you have, you had on their, like the metrics of like income, race and stuff like that.

And it seemed like from your clientele, not, you know, people, I think it was like about 42% of the people were like below, like 40,000 a year or something like that. And then maybe only 15% or like in the 90, over a hundred thousand range mm-hmm . So it seems like there’s some sort of correlation between like quality of life and, you know, get into a point where you spiral out of control with drugs, you know, and I thought about when I was a dealer, you know, like my higher end clientele, you know, usually we’re not.

The people you, that, that really, you know, appeared, you know, they, some of ’em didn’t come around a lot. Like they only would like do drugs four or five times a year, and then that was it. Or they only did like pills and [00:52:00] stuff like that. They seemed to be more like in control. I did have, you know, one rich, you know, very, very, you know, well to do, you know, client who I think did a bit, much meth, you know, but other than that, most of my high end people seem to keep it together.

And I don’t know. Do you think that that’s because of the better quality of life or 

Kattie: I

I’ve never thought about that before. That’s a really alls I can do is give you my initial thought on it because, you know, I think that, I think that there might be some truth to that, that quality of life, but like also. Think about, think about the stigma that you face in being an addict. And so being an addict who also struggles with poverty how further into the margins does that push you?

You know, as being a person who struggles with addiction, but has money and prestige in the community, [00:53:00] it’s easier to keep your head above water. You know? So I, I that’s like the first correlation that comes into my mind, you know, that I can think of. 

De’Vannon: I concur. So since, so, since your approach is not like higher powered centered I saw the word mindfulness on your website.

How does mindfulness play into what you. So, 

Kattie: you know, I think that spirituality means different things to different people. And so always trying to like any, any members we call clients, members, anybody that walks through the door, they’re a member. So any member like I would work with to figure out, like, what does spirituality mean to you?

How is that important to you? But also like mindfulness, like how amazing of a skill that is like, how amazing is it to be able to bring mindfulness into your life and help clear the clutter that constant like movement of the mind and be able to focus on the here and [00:54:00] now, and really just reign it back because you know, a lot of times people are using too quiet, just that constant chatter, just that constant activity in their mind.

So helping people find that mindfulness and, and what that 

De’Vannon: means to them. But yeah, hearing you say that reminds me of a client that I had when I was a drug dealer who had some sort of physical ailment that caused him pain. And, and he was like, the only thing that brings me peace is when I do these drugs and I, and I would tell him a lot of meth and G and I was like, okay, well, I’m doing the Lord’s work hallelu.

So, you know yeah. You know, you just don’t know. That’s why I don’t believe drugs are just bad inherently, you know, mm-hmm and couldn’t find physical peace anywhere. Mm-hmm, , you know, at all, except for when he was high on these drugs. So judge it, if you will, but I advise you not to do with people cuz you, you know, God’s gonna judge you one day, says let people go.

Mm now [00:55:00]

Kattie: and, and giving people the autonomy to decide what it is, that’s good for their lives rather than like us determining that for 

De’Vannon: them. Yeah, that’s very, very empowering because you’re not saying like how so many, I mean, medical facilities, mental health facilities, not just the anonymous movement.

When you check in there, they’re like you’re dumb ass adult fee. We know what’s better than you. So set your ass here and do what we’re gonna tell you. Mm-hmm then we’ll let you leave. When we, when we decide that you’re, that you’re able to a recurring theme that I saw through your website and when I was researching you was that’s like you, there was a time you couldn’t see the best in yourself, and now that’s a big deal for you is, is helping somebody see what’s good in them, even when they don’t.

So I remember when I was homeless and walking the streets of Houston, I would always walk with my head down and it looking at the ground, it seemed like it took way too much effort for me to either look straight ahead and for God’s sakes to look up, you know, like the heaven or anything [00:56:00]like that, I felt so like hollow.

You know, as a, as a human, I didn’t feel like there was anything left in me at all. There was no light mm-hmm . So talk to us about the, and people had to see that lightened me to, to make me believe that I could actually continue to live. So how important is that? 

Kattie: so important. I think it’s, it’s everything, because if people can’t see that sense of purpose and value within themselves, like they’re not gonna invest in anything if they can’t see anything beyond where they’re at right then and there.

And like, I have, I have a member that just comes to my mind, like right away. And I we’re often operating from like a deficit model, you know, like trying to tell people what’s wrong with him and what they need to fix. Like, I really want people to understand what’s right with them and why they should work forward because they have this to offer.

And I just remember him sitting here for our, maybe our like third session. And I was like, [00:57:00]what do you like about yourself? And it was just silent and he could not come up with one thing. Like one thing that was worth him, you know, just even continuing to live for. And, you know, I, I generally don’t like to like, feed those things that people like.

I want people to recognize it for themselves, but I started telling him the things that I seen in him, and I really started pushing him. And it’s just cool because I met with him yesterday and he is getting ready to go to college for data sciences. And he has just grown so much. And like I, he said, things are going pretty well.

Like I can see myself doing pretty good and like, he’s starting to grow this confidence. And like, just like seeing that transformation as he started to believe in himself, like. I don’t think if he wouldn’t have had somebody in his corner saying like, if that’s the way you wanna do this, I trust you. I trust you.

Like, even if it was something that I was like, I don’t know if this is gonna work for him, but like, just being [00:58:00] able to say, I trust you. Like, and, and being that first person that believed in him really just changed his life. 

De’Vannon: Yeah. A little bit goes the long damn way. Especially when you, when nobody around you is acting like they believe in you.

I mean, I’ve been there before, you know, mm-hmm so I wanna talk about the pricing structure and usually I wouldn’t get into this, but since y’all have it displayed out on your website for all the world to see I, and I think that transparency speaks to how much you believe in what you do. I think that the rates, if they start at like 80 an hour, something like that, which is on par with mental health, you know, anywhere else that I’ve been.

But you also have programs to help sponsor and pay for this for people if they can’t afford it themselves. I think the ver on your website reads like, do you know you have a lot of generous sponsors and stuff like that. I wanted to read a Testament, a Testament though, from someone on your website, her name is Lexi.

And what Lexi has to say about this is I’m a single mom. [00:59:00] So about 90% of my disposable income goes to my son. And he is the most important thing in the world to me. But I also knew that I had to get better and I had to figure out what was wrong with me. I was so nervous. I wouldn’t get the financial help from face it together, but they said there were lots of options and to not worry about it, it really took the stress away.

Mm-hmm so talk to us about how you help people afford what you’re offering. So 

Kattie: we. There’s two things that we do. So as you’ve seen, we’re very data focused and we use that data to be able to get grant funding so that we’re able to say what we’re doing is working. We’re making a difference in people’s lives.

Can you help us not make finances, a barrier for people to receiving the services that they need? So that is one thing that we do, and we do a lot of fundraising as well. We’re just getting ready to do a multi-state March. So on September 24th, we’ll do something called a March into the light where we do a [01:00:00] symbolic walk into the light.

And then we do like a 5k and a fun run. And just this event and we raise money and we just reach out to our community and like ask for the support and this help. And we do a golf tournament every year and we do these big things so that we can be able to provide. Those social good sponsorships to people because you know, it is hard when you want help.

And I go onto the prison. I have so many guys there, there, like I was trying to get into treatment. I was trying to get into treatment, but I didn’t have the money to do it. We don’t want that to be a thing anymore.

De’Vannon: Yeah. When I was in rehab, you know, there was a guy who had to stop treatment because the insurance cut off the funding midway, which was like the, one of the most asinine and insane things I’ve ever seen in this entire.

The man’s here for help strung out on drugs and, oh, well you gotta go because you know, money’s not coming in anymore. So what the fuck do you think’s gonna happen? Mm-hmm but I love the fact that you fundraised, I have never met a mental [01:01:00] health or, you know, or emotional support facility that does fundraising like that.

And which all are do reminds me of my fundraising days in the military, I used to do all that. I used to host golf tournaments, sell popcorn bowls, burger burns, you know, whatever times of ways. So have your assistance, add my email to the list so that when you do these things, I can send y’all some money.

Kattie: Absolutely. We’ll definitely add you to our list. We’ll take you up on that offer. 

De’Vannon: y’all throw like social events, like galas or like dances or anything like that, you 

Kattie: know? We, we don’t currently like the March is the March is a kind of a big event that we do. It’s open to the public. You don’t have to fundraise or, you know, donate to be able to participate.

It’s just a, an event in honor of people getting well. So that’s like the big thing that we do. We. We’ve done [01:02:00] like a few things in the past. I don’t think that we quite got the engagement that we were hoping for in the community at the time, but you know, it definitely is something that we may be interested in doing again in the future.

De’Vannon: So there’s always room for growth. And I love that. Now I just have a few more questions. Thank you for hanging with me. Yeah. I wanted to, to, to touch on the experience because y’all this website, you must check it out. It is so cool. I love that the color scheme kind of echoes my website a little bit, just the tip screen, you know, and the black on.

And and you know, and we were inspired by breaking bad when we designed my website. So, you know, we’re all connected here. maybe we’ll have lunch with Heisenberg some days 

Kattie: there we go. Yeah. 

De’Vannon: so on the website, you can go and get a real sense of what the experience is from the time you do the first intake.

Like she was saying, you’re a member. When you walk through the door to getting you from, from point a to where you wanna be. The thing that stood out to me is the access that you have. So like, [01:03:00] there’s like unlimited texting to like your counselor and stuff like that. So just kind of give us a breakdown of what it, what it feels like to be a member and what would happen when someone walked through the door.

Kattie: Yeah. And so, and you don’t even have to walk through the door. Like we wanna meet people where they’re at. Like, I have members that are exclusively phone calls. I have members that are exclusively zoom. Like we will meet you where you’re at. If you are not ready to talk to somebody on the phone, text us, we’ll text you back.

Like whatever we have to do to meet you where your at that’s, what we’ll do. We’re really flexible. So like, if you wanna get in touch with us, go to our website, engage with our chat bot. There’s a web form that you can fill out. We’ll call, text, whatever you prefer. But what we do is we go through, we do some of those like initial assessments to, to really like, find you the best match for a coach.

We want everybody to like, have somebody with like the closest personal experience. We wanna be [01:04:00] able to have everybody feel like they’re able to connect with somebody. So we have a first impressions team that will take the time, match you up with the right coach for you. And then from there, they’ll do kind of a wellness consult, try to kind of determine what it is like, where you’re struggling, what you want your goals to be like, what, what you’re hoping to gain out of working with face it together.

And then usually within a week of reaching out to us, you’ll have your first appointment scheduled. You know, how many times have somebody been in crisis and they call out for help. And they’re like, oh, we’ll get you in, in a couple months. Like, that’s not us. Like we will, we’ll get you in right away.

Like, and. I think the biggest thing that I would like to stress is like, we just wanna treat everybody with that dignity and respect. We want everybody to feel welcomed and valued and being a member. I think that that’s probably the, the biggest feedback that we get is we always felt like somebody cared because we do [01:05:00]

De’Vannon: well, that’s more than I can say for the federal government.

You know, you know, you know, I think about how accessible you are. And I think about, you know, it was the government that made this war on drugs, but then they also made it impossible to get help for it too. It’s like they set the country up to fail and but y’all, I love this website so much. It’s already up on the resources page on my sex drugs and Jesus website, because the moment I saw it, I was like, they’re different.

You know, I wanna really, really you know, collaborate with them a lot, moving forward. Mm-hmm So I talked about the statistics earlier. Y’all must check out the statistics. Their statistics are so different. They have statistics like based on like people’s quality of life improvement. So, you know, and then they also give statistics on like people’s loved ones, you know, like, and how they’re affected in everything like that.

I thought that that was so open minded and open hearted of y’all. So, you know, why did you, why do you include [01:06:00] loved ones in your statistics and what advice would you give to people’s loved ones who has a family member that’s using drugs. 

Kattie: So that is another thing that I should have mentioned before. But that really makes us stand out.

Not only do we help people who are struggling with an addiction we also help people who have loved ones who are struggling with addictions. So we have coaches who specifically help people’s. Loved ones. And so whether the person struggling with addiction is engaging in services or not the loved one can get the support that they need, because that is an extremely isolating place to be is having a loved one who you are scared is gonna die from, you know, their addiction and not knowing how to support them and, you know, watching them pull away.

So we are that person, like we’ll help you learn how to support them. We’re again, different from the anonymous programs in that we don’t, you know, [01:07:00] believe that, you know, you just like lovingly detach. Like we believe that you learn how to positively enable the person to make changes. And so we just take a really different view on that as well.

De’Vannon: Lovingly detached is it? I think Al-Anon might be the the version of the anonymous movements, you know, for the family members. Of the people going through the addiction. I’ve never been through it because, you know, I I’m the drug user in my family. yeah. You know, so wait, they tell people to lovingly detached, what the fuck does that mean?

Is that like politely to say, bye bitch. I don’t, what the fuck? The lovingly attached. 

Kattie: exactly. It’s like, oh, I hope you don’t die. I really care about you, but I’m done. Like, that’s essentially what it is, you know? And I think it’s like just a way to try to help people feel at peace with it. But like how, first of all, how helpful is that?

And like, what is the thing that generally like pushes people to make changes? It’s the people [01:08:00] that. Care about them and that support them and that are, are on that journey with them. You know? So, yeah.

De’Vannon: I wonder if that’s why. Cause one of my siblings, when I was, you know, going through everything, me, they never had a conversation with me. They just assumed the worst. You know, they texted me saying never to show up to their house again and stuff like that. You know, I had gone over there and stolen anything.

Hadn’t done anything I had just gotten arrested. Like, you know, I just really, you know, I was in the, you know, getting into the thick of it, but I had never done anything that they could say you hurt me. So don’t come back. So assumed. So I wonder if they heard this lovingly detached thing. Well, I’m gonna tell you lovingly detached don’t work.

It just feels like rejection. Mm-hmm how 

Kattie: much. And that is the current study that we are working on is when a loved one is receiving coaching to learn how to instead of lovingly detached lovingly support their loved one. [01:09:00] In a healthy way how that affects a person struggling with an addiction, like what positive effects that, that has on them.

Because we, we’re starting to see a pretty strong correlation with the fact that when these people get that support from their loved ones, that positively affects their experience with addiction as well, 

De’Vannon: any kind of positive energy is gonna help you, but that is so hypocritical of the anonymous movement to claim, to be a religious program.

But, you know, in the Hebrew Bible, the Lord says that he’s married, he’s married to the backslider. You know, he’s married to people who are making mistakes and it doesn’t matter how far you fall, he’s attached to you. There is nothing about detach, you know, you know, in terms of like the Lord. So, okay. So then that’s that, that that’s, I think we’ve covered everything that, you know, that I wanted to talk about.

I thank you for going over time. Mm-hmm with me. And so I just wanted to get your You know, whatever it is, you have to say to [01:10:00] anybody who thinks that recovery from meth is not possible in any other closing, last words you’d like to say. 

Kattie: Yeah. I mean, I think that there was a good chunk of time where I wasn’t sure recovery from meth was possible, but it definitely is.

It definitely is. It’s just that love and support and the growth. And, you know, I’ve watched so many people recover. So many of our coaches have struggled with the meth addiction and it’s just there. And you know, other than that, I think the biggest thing that I would like to say is don’t be afraid to reach out, you know, whether we end up being the right program for you or not just having a ear to listen and some support, like don’t, don’t ever hesitate to reach out.

It can definitely 

De’Vannon: change your life. All right. Thank you. So, so, so, so very much my dears been wonderful having you and I will look forward to hearing from you about how I can give you money. 

Kattie: thank so [01:11:00] much it so good. Getting know you. I hope you enjoy the rest of your day.

De’Vannon: Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the sex drugs in Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at sex drugs in jesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.

My name is De’Vannon and it’s been wonderful being your host today and just remember that everything is gonna be right.


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