Episode #90: Ketamine Therapy, K Hole Defined & Treatment Resistant Mental Health Issues, With Frank Ligons, Author Of IV Ketamine Infusion Therapy For Depression



Frank M. Ligons, MS specializes in exploring the benefits, safety, and payment strategies regarding Ketamine treatment in addressing mental, physical, and addiction-related illness. 
His three years of ketamine treatment as a
patient, combined with his medical background, give audiences harrowing and
hopeful insights into this extraordinary therapy.


After 25 years of suicidal thoughts and dozens of medications, Frank stumbled upon a psychiatric treatment he had never heard of: low-dose intravenous ketamine. Since all else failed, any treatment he hadn’t heard of must be worth a try. 

After exhausting decades fighting for his life in
the conventional psychiatric medication system, ketamine removed those deadly
ideations that claimed his grandmother’s life when he was a young child.


INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to):


·      Special K YaY!!!

·      Medical & Doctoral Dependency 

·      Origins Of Ketamine

·      Uses Of Ketamine Therapy

·      Military Implications

·      Treatment Resistant Mental Health Issues

·      What Is A K Hole?

·      The Failed War On Drugs

·      Addiction Risk Of Ketamine





Website: https://findketamine.com

Book: https://amzn.to/3ZYUOzs

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/frankmligons/





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·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)


TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs


·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)




·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)



·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levin




·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com

·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net




·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org

·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org


·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg





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Frank M. Ligons


You’re listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De’Vannon and I’ll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what’s really going on in your life.

There is nothing off the table and we’ve got a lot to talk about. So let’s dive right into this episode.

De’Vannon: Frank Liggins is the author of the groundbreaking book, IV Ketamine Infusion Therapy for Depression. Why I Tried It, what It’s Like, and If It Worked, baby. Yes. Now Frank is here with me today because he specializes in in exploring the benefits, safety, and payment strategies and everything else regarding Ketamine Treat.

but the particular emphasis on how ketamine can be used for addressing mental, [00:01:00] physical, and addiction related illnesses. Now, after struggling with over 25 years of suicidal thoughts and all kinds of medication, Frank found his own way to ketamine treatment in that is what has saved his life today. So please listen in and close as we dish on.

how this once taboo drug

has now made a new name for itself.

Hello, are you beautiful souls out there? And welcome back to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. I’m your host of Annan Hubert, and I got wi here with me today. My boy, Frank Liggins. Is that how we say that Liggins. Yes. Yeah, Frank Legged and he wrote a, a damn good book. It’s called IV Ketamine Infusion Therapy for Depression.

Why I Tried It, what it’s like, and If it Worked. The best way I can describe this book is like a mixture between a high, how to guide and a medical memoir, and I’ve never seen this before. I think [00:02:00]it’s absolutely fan fucking brilliant. And Frank, how are you today? 

Frank: I’m great and I’m glad to hear to be here and I’m very flattered by that intro,

De’Vannon: Of course. So go right ahead and tell us about like your education. You have a very interesting degree and I want you to tell us about like your 

Frank: learning. Yeah, absolutely. I guess my most recent education is, is in, you know, medicine. I have a master’s of science in, it’s called biomedical Informatics.

And one of the things that has been really helpful from having that background is me being able to read and sort through medical studies on my own and be able to report those to people in more of a down to earth 

De’Vannon: language. Yeah, you hit the nail on the head with the down to earth language because we always wanna be able to talk to people at the level where [00:03:00] they’re at.

No sense in having all this complex information, if we can’t break it the fuck down, like Charlie fucking Brown and give it right in a way that they can fucking use. So, so, you know, you know, the title of this show is Sex, drugs and Jesus. So I, you know, we’re gonna be talking about drugs, man, drugs and You know, normally, normally I would ask for like, some sort of client success story, but you know, you really are like your own success story in this, in this space here that we’re working in. And. From, from one of the, one of the chapters in your book. One called, but I’ve tried it all. Mm-hmm. , you were going through this here in this chapter, you’re telling us about how you had to take all this medicine as a kid, and then it’s, it’s followed you into college and you were saying about the side effects of the [00:04:00] medicine.

Gave you like fatigue, chronic fatigue, O c d, depression, and, and then this chapter you were talking about how you hate having to take medicine, but the reality is, is that some people really have to be on something or they need to take something. And you said, and I quote, I resent being such a loyal pharmaceutical customer end quote,

So talk to me about, because I feel like a lot of people are like this. I’ve seen people tilting bags of pills around and it’s almost like people become a slave to medication. And so what are your thoughts on that? 

Frank: Sure. I mean, that’s a good question because I think it’s one of those things that I’m not sure that it gets enough talk or, or let’s say it doesn’t get enough talk upfront.

You know, usually you go to the, you know, your doctor, they prescribe you something, you know, for your symptoms. But rarely [00:05:00] do you get the whole, you know, dictionary of the things that you may be dealing with right. As side effects. So you know, a lot of us find that. kind of too late. You know, you’re, you, well you’re already kind of hooked into the system.

But yeah, I mean, I, I mean, for, for most people I know, including myself, that, that have needed like psychiatric medications. It, it, it’s really a love and hate situation, you know? And frequently people will go back and forth, you know. , you’re on it, maybe you get, you know, some relief, but then you get fed up with the side effects and then you try to cut back.

But then you unfortunately discover that you know, you can’t function at that level. And before you know it, you’re like, me, I just was out of town and I have to carry like 20 pill bottles, like [00:06:00]in. and my sack as I go through security, and they look at me very oddly, because they’re thinking, you know, what’s a legitimate use of those?

So many med, you know, prescription bottles. So yeah, I think it’s a tough topic for everyone. I wish people were more open about it and felt more comfortable so that they could realize they’re not.

De’Vannon: I personally think some people take a psychological they, they, they garner a certain psychological. Pseudo comfort or I guess in their mind a true comfort for for going to see a doctor. Cuz a doctor is almost like, you know, you’re not exactly gonna get like a spa treatment or anything like that, but anytime we’re being tended to by another human being, there’s cer certain sort of like pampered Yeah.

Feeling that goes along with [00:07:00] it. And I really think some people. Like going to talk to the doctor, may don’t have anyone else to talk to, but this person is there to quote unquote care for them. And it is still a form of affection. And, and so do you think that there’s any sort of, look and we’re not psychotherapists here, y’all, I’m kicking around what I feel like the spirit is revealing to me.

I’m not, you know, this is, this is the, the, this is coming from within. and from I like it. So do you think there’s any sort of like emotional need that people are feeling by going to these doctors and, 

Frank: yeah, I mean, I think that’s an excellent question. And, and really one that no one ever asked me, people don’t generally talk about, but yeah, I think there are two facets to that.

One is, you know, there’s a. , you know, when you’re suffering in some way, there’s a I think an instinct to wanna find some control over [00:08:00] that, to kind of take some steps to feel like you’re not just floating into disaster. And so, you know, when you have a medical issue or a psychiatric issue, I think one of the things you’re, you’re just, you know, grasping for someone to say, I have some idea what’s wrong with you, and I may be able to help.

So I think. , there’s, you know, just kind of that, you know, instinctual survival. And then I think also, like you alluded to is, you know, and this can vary I think, between providers. So like for instance, you know, when we talk about therapists, I’ve noticed over the years that therapists fall all over the spectrum.

And in other words, there’s therapists that are kind of almost just like your friend. You know, it’s kind of like you just go, you talk about what happened that. and you know, they kind of absorb that or just kind of be a, you know, a sounding board. And then there are therapists that are like very, you know, action oriented who [00:09:00] have, you know, very specific plan.

They want to teach you specific skills and they’re basically like, Hey, you know, when you’re ready to act on these skills, like you’ll get results. But like, I, I’m other, otherwise us just talking about it isn’t gonna help you. So, you know. But yeah, I, I, I mean, I think you’re right. I know plenty of people all over the scale.

I’ve been on the scale in various places. I just think you need to be honest with yourself because, you know, if you’re going to a place that’s just talking to you, but you’re not making any progress, you know, that’s, that could be problematic. 

De’Vannon: And I think that goes for. MDs, like general practitioners, medical doctors, and psychological doctors.

Sure. Basically what Frank and I are saying is if you’re going to these doctors and you’re, you’re not really getting healed and cured, then perhaps you should reevaluate and consider why you’re [00:10:00] really going. Absolutely. Because switching the medication around, like they try to do what’s at the va, the Department of Veterans Affairs, where I.

You know, you go and sit in there, you talk to the doctor for 30 minutes and it’s like, what drugs are you on? Shall we up the dosage or change it? Those are really the only questions they give a fuck about an asking you . So that’s why you see veterans toting 20 pill bottles around and everything like that.

It’s common, yeah. Common at the va. And so we’re saying, why are you going? There’s people in my family who are like, . So regular at the doctor, they should have like a gold v i p card in their own fucking parking spot outside with their team on it. . But I’m like, is shit really getting fixed? Right? And so then that’s where, that’s where ketamine comes in.

So right off the bat, what if somebody goes, well, is it ketamine a drug just like all the other drugs? What’s the 

Frank: difference? Yeah, so Ketamine actually [00:11:00] was developed in the 1960s. And one like little piece of trivia that’s interesting is it was designed to be an improvement on P C P. So , 

De’Vannon: hell yeah. Yeah.

What’s going 

Frank: on? ? With a medical, you know, facility had, you know, developed pcp. The thing is they found out there were a lot of side effects, right? So they start working on, you know, how can we, you know, get a sedative that we can use for surgery and such, and a pain reliever that people may not react as dramatically too.

And so they came up with that in the early sixties and there was, you know, a lot of excitement about it because now. They had, you know, you know what we would, you know, call a, you know, a hypnotic sedative, [00:12:00] which you could use reliably on people that was, you know, very safe. You know, they’re very, you know, few serious side effects, if any.

They’re, they’re usually very brief and actually, while this was, you know, kind of growing in the surgical domain, it was getting a lot of attention. on the battlefield because in war situations and war time situations, you know, when you have you know, people literally out on a field, you know, being shot and injured in different ways, you know what’s, what’s something kind of easy, safe.

That will meet the needs of us, like, you know, trying to help people right then, you know, how can we calm them down? How can we lessen their trauma in the moment? How can we you know, relieve pain? And so, you know, this ketamine comes along and, you know, all of a sudden, you know, the battlefield, [00:13:00] you know, medical community was like, wow, you know, this actually has a lot going for it.

That’s how it all started before the days of all the innovative uses we’re using it for 

De’Vannon: now. So, so you’re telling me it started on the battlefield before it made its way into like vets offices. Yes. 

Frank: Yes, exactly. Yeah. So a lot anesthesiologists and like battlefield, you know, trauma, medical personnel were using 

De’Vannon: at.

right? Cause a lot of people know it as like horse tranquilizer, but you know, it has more implications than just dosing horses. And so, absolutely. 

Frank: Yeah. I’m, I mean, it’s something that, you know, with the horses, it’d be the same thing, you know, with us, like, you know, when you need to operate on a horse, you need the the same benefits, right?

You need them to be sedate. You need them not to [00:14:00] be like moving and kicking around. You know, you need them you know, not being in too much pain. And so, you know, they’re just another mammal, right. Like us, so that makes sense. 

De’Vannon: It’s interesting cause, you know, crystal meth thought it out that way. I think from the Japanese army if I’m, or military if I’m not mistaken.

Oh, okay. Because they needed, and I can’t remember which warrant, but they needed a way to keep the soldiers up and to make them. Oh, well, basically like they wanna throw themselves a sudden death, so they, so they manufactured, you know, you know, methamphetamine, you know, and then, You know, it kind of like spiraled from there.

Like, oh, look at what we have here. You know, this actually feels kind of good and you know, and so the government has probably created most, if not all of these fucking drugs that they now want to call illegal. So I’m like, you did it, bitch. So just [00:15:00] illegal it now legalize it all and be done with it. Right, right.

Ketamine, to my knowledge, is now legal across the United States. 

Frank: It’s legal though by pres. . But yes, like anyone that has licensing, you know, privileges. And that’s like every type of physician, right? Like, so that could be an MD psychiatrist, it could be, you know, an internist, a cardiologist. Anybody that can write prescriptions can write one for ketamine.

De’Vannon: Okay? So what he’s saying is this, this is regulated by the dea. It is, fuck the dea. I’m gonna say it again. Fuck the dea. But so that means that I cannot decide I wanna be a drug dealer again and go toting around jugs of ketamine or whatever. And that’s unfortunately not man , but you, you can go, you can go to Oregon and get you some ketamine.

I do believe that that’s a part of their measure one then that they passed. Oh really? But it is still illegal to [00:16:00] sell or deal or whatever the fuck they’re doing over in Oregon. But so. . So Ketamine, ketamine, ketamine. How is so you, so you tried ketamine. So let’s talk about your personal success story with this.

So you were the guy on all the drugs and stuff like that, the different 20 pills. Are you still on the 20 pills now? I’m on, 

Frank: trying to think what I’m on now. Probably, I think I’m probably on about six pills. About half of which are to counteract the side effects of like the first three pills, . So yeah, still quite a few.

This, this is not a cure. I wanna be clear to people about that. Like, ketamine is not a cure. That does not mean that some people don’t go for ketamine treatment. And then, you know, there’s a long time before they need, you know, a booster or [00:17:00] something. But you know, ketamine is I like to think of it more akin to a rescue kind of medication, right?

Because you have plenty of people that you know, have, you know, treatment resistant depression, right? Like people like me who tried every drug, you know, they’ve been everywhere. They’ve done everything. But you know, still they have a deep depression and you know, That can do anything from just make their quality of life miserable to, you know, put them in danger for suicide.

And so often what happens at that time is, you know, you go to a psychiatrist, Hey, we’ll try, you know, something else. You know, we’ll make a good faith effort, but you know, it’s gonna take two months, you know, if it works at all. And you know, you’re in the most horrible state of your life. And it’s just like, wow.

You know, how am I. Plow through another couple months [00:18:00] and you know, with no promises at the end. What’s exciting about ketamine is I literally, and this isn’t uncommon after 25 years of those perent suicidal thoughts, I literally went in for my first treatment and those began to dissipate. And so it was.

It was shocking. It was unbelievable. And that happens to about two thirds of people with treatment resistant depression. Hmm. 

De’Vannon: Yeah. Cuz they turn me onto exploring this and this Ketamine is in the hallucinogenic category too, by the way. People, so there’re there’s, that’s, that’s what your L s d, your psilocybin, you know, ketamine, all of them are kind of like, well they are classified the same.

Because I was watching documentaries about like veterans with like a P T S D. Yeah. [00:19:00] And depression and all of that. And you know, You know, my, my boys, you know, some of us come back from the war, all kinds of fucked up, twisted, chopped, and screwed at every goddamn thing, and talking about treatment resistant mental health issues.

Oh, yeah. Can’t find anything to fix people who have come back from these wars. And so, and so the, so the military and the federal government have turned to like M D M A. You know, ketamine and stuff like that. And I saw, you know, where these veterans had, they just, like, after one treatment of that, those lar, those intense symptoms like they had went away and they did not return to them.

Yeah, that’s crazy. And so now, does that mean that they’re off of everything? Not necessarily. And I, I would imagine for some people it does, and I don’t how, how, how long, how much time that takes to do. But I mean, if you’re living in constant chaos every day and this could like just take that from you while you’ve managed the minor things, I think it’s worth it rather than to go in and kill yourself.

Frank: Yeah. [00:20:00] Yeah. I mean, , it’s I mean, one thing about it is like, You know, ketamine, you know, when you’re under the influence of you’re, well, you’re in this session, one thing that happens, you know, often for people, whether it’s depression or P T S D, is they develop a new perspective on their life and on their problems or on, you know, past traumatic events.

And so that perspective frequently, is one of like new possibilities and you know, the, the idea of, oh, you know, there is a feeling outside of dread and and terror and, you know, sadness that I can feel. And with that perhaps I could take some next steps in my life, steps that I haven’t felt up to and [00:21:00]wasn’t sure if I would ever be able to.

De’Vannon: That sounds good to me. I like that. , . That sounds 

Frank: good to me. Not bad, right? 

De’Vannon: Like too shabby at all? Not too shabby. I’d say . So, so ketamine therapy, when I went to go get it, it was like a fluid in, in like an IV pack. So, I have not seen this in street form, powder form. I don’t know what other forms, but we’re talking about like in like an official clinic now.

Yeah. So you go in. I wasn’t impressed with the bitch that did mine because she had me fucked up. And so I’m not gonna try this again in Louisiana because, because they’re just too fucking basic down here in this state where I live. God, I know you’re listening. Please send me back to Los Angeles where people make sense and they’re not afraid to go hard and they get me

So I went in. Ready to hallucinate and shit. You know, I had my, yeah, yeah. Drive me up there. I’m all like, oh, I’m about to talk to [00:22:00] some ancestor. Yeah. And she did not give . I was trying, I felt nothing. I sat there with a thing in my arm and she didn’t want to give me a lot, and she said she did some kind of fucked up calculation.

By my standards professionally, you know, as a, as a medical professional. Cause I’m a licensed massage therapist and hypnotist myself. I understand why you would want to go into something. Yeah. With a high degree of caution. And so she does some sort of calculation based on body weight or whatever. So this shouldn’t send someone into a K hole.

I’m gonna ask you to describe what a keyhole is in a. But but I was like, at that time I was like 230, you know, pounds or something like that. I’m like, bitch, you need to crank up the dose here. This is a lot of weight to go around. And so I didn’t feel, I felt like drunk and wooy. Yeah. I didn’t feel, I didn’t have any like, It was like $450 to go in there and not get what I came for.[00:23:00]

Yeah. So I wasn’t pleased with it, but I’m glad that you had, you know, some happy-go-lucky Smurf results. . 

Frank: Well, you know what I mean? It, it’s a funny thing because the, like not everybody experiences like the hallucinogenic. and I would say it’s probably, you know, a lot, you know, dose dependent. So like you said, I mean your story makes sense, right?

You come in, you’re a new patient, you get kind of the minimum standard dosage. So like you said, you know, what does that feel like? I mean, it’s, for me, my first experience was, yeah, I just kind of felt kind of intoxicated. I mean, it felt good. Like I felt very. I kind of had a, you know, a feel good sensation, but I certainly wasn’t like, hallucinating or felt like anything on that level, but I, but you [00:24:00] can experience a lot more of that at higher 

De’Vannon: doses.

Well, I will have it done one more time in California, . Okay. Okay. I’m not doing this shit in Louisiana. If I, I could have taken $450 and went to go talk to homie on the corner, you could’ve and definitely had a fucking out-of-body experience. Oh yeah, yeah. You trying to do the right fucking thing and go to the legal clinic, everything, and I felt like I got got for my money.

I feel like. 

Frank: But I understand that’s It’s a lot. It’s a lot not to get, you feel like you’re not getting the bang for your buck, man. Like, 

De’Vannon: understandable. So, so basically what y’all can take out of this is if you’re gonna go get ketamine, be sure to talk to them about the dosage and find you somebody who’s not afraid to take it up a bit.

If you know that you have a high tolerance for narcotics and drugs and things like that. Mm-hmm. . So that’s not a question that I asked him before I went. Maybe it could have been d. You know, [00:25:00]thought about it, but, 

Frank: and everybody’s different. And like you said, like if you’ve had, you know, one thing I mentioned in a book is if, if you’ve had a lot of, you know, drug experience, like a lot of experience with various types of intoxication, I think that kind of changes like your, I mean, it, it, it, it oftentimes, I think it’s a positive thing because,

You know, whenever you’re on a drug, particularly something like you haven’t tried before, if you never spent a lot of time like being intoxicated, it can be frightening to feel like you’re losing control. Right? So, you know, you’re leaned back, you know, kicking in, kicking in this, you know, dark room, they got the IV hooked up and all of a sudden, you know, you kind of start to float away.

Some people react very anxiously. to that. But I found on the other hand, you know, whatever, if you used to Drake and you’re used to smoking, you used to, you know, whatever it is, you’re like, Hey, I, you [00:26:00] know, could kind of roll with this. Like, this is a, this isn’t the most challenging situation I’ve ever been in, 

De’Vannon: and I haven’t done a lot of shit now.

Frank: That’s what I’m saying. So you’re a soldier, man. I mean, literally like, you’re, you’re a veteran in this, you know what 

De’Vannon: I mean? So I need a double dose. The next time I go in, baby, Hey baby . The first time I did Shum, they took seven grams for me to, for even, it’s hard to see anything hallucinogenic. And everybody that I talk to says three grams is like, they’re on like the moon.

I’m like, no, bitch. It took seven for the, for, for my rocket to even turn on. Oh, that’s interesting. 

Frank: And so, yeah, you may. You may need someone that’s, I mean, and it’s true amongst practitioners. Some are more aggressive than others, you know? So like I’ve been in situations where I’m like, okay, you know, this is my, you know, third [00:27:00] treatment, whatever, can we bump it up by, you know, whatever.

And you know, one practitioner will say, yeah, you know, we’ll add, you know, five milligrams to that and another one they’ll say, Hey, no, we’ll, we’ll add 10, we’ll add 15. So you can definitely see a variance amongst the practitioners. 

De’Vannon: Okay. Now a lot of people have heard of a K hole. I’ve seen a person in the caho ones we were at this I would say big gay party that happens out in California and leave it at that.

Okay. You know, I know he was on the couch, kinda like laying down, you know, aware, but not really. I wouldn’t say he was in a state of panic. Nobody seemed to need to call 9 1 1. You know, nothing like that. So what the fuck is a K hole ? 

Frank: Well, a K hole, which I guess is kind of short for Ketamine hole, is a level of [00:28:00]experience induced by ketamine.

which just generally is, is regarded as like extreme. It could be really frightening. It could be really it could be like almost religious, you know, it could be like transcendent. And so first I should say there’s no. official definition, there’s no like blood test or something somebody could give you and say, oh yeah, he was in a K hole.

A K hole is kind of more of a subjective thing. Mm-hmm. , but usually it’s used in a, I don’t know if I wanna say a negative. It’s, it’s used as keyholes aren’t usually things people seek out. Okay. Because usually by the time you get to that level of dosage, Some, some difficult things can happen. You can hallucinate [00:29:00] you can feel dread, you can feel one, one section of my book, I talk about one of the keyholes that I’ve been in a few times which I call Six Foot Under , which is where I kind of slowly throughout the session, feel like I’m like being buried alive and I’m kind of underground and everything’s really quiet.

I kind of have this visual sense of, of dirt kind of being thrown over me. Things are getting really calm and, but like as that, as that, you know, that experience develops if you’re not used to it or if you’ve never encountered. That was very frightening because I, after a while, I started to feel like, whoa, you know, am I gonna be able to like wake up from this?

Or like, is something. , you know, really serious happening. Like, am I gonna like die in my dream and like die reali? Like, [00:30:00] I don’t know what was going on myself. So there are keyhole themes that people sometimes have and and some of them overlap. Like I, I’ve heard the Buried Alive thing before. But I’ve had other bizarre ones too.

Like there’s I’m trying to think. For me, they usually have to do with somehow. Being stuck or being somehow like incapacitated and, you know, we could do the, the arm share, psychologist, maybe you could tell me what that means. But yeah, overall though, I’d say K holds, they’re not to be frightened of.

Like they’re not gonna hurt you. They’re not gonna give you any lasting injury or anything basically. , you know, that’s gonna be gone, you know, in a few minutes or whatever. Or you can call the nurse and they can really precipitate, you know, dropping that effect down. 

De’Vannon: So a keyhole is [00:31:00] not to be confused like an overdose?

Frank: No. I mean, some people, I guess like an overdose I would say is, is kind of more of a medical, more of a fixed medical term, saying that you’ve hit like a level of toxicity. that’s now like threatening your body in some way. This isn’t necessarily that, but I guess you could pass through the K hole stage on your way to an overdose

So it’s not like something where you just want to be just, you know, sniffing K in your basement and pay no mind to the, you know, the dosage and what not. You’re getting, like thinking that you. Having the keyholes, the worst that could happen. That’s not the worst that could happen if you go too far.

De’Vannon: Okay, so that is wanted to establish, you know that there is such a thing as an overdose, so you can do too much. The keyhole is not an overdose level and so [00:32:00] this is another reason why it’s good to do it in a medical facility. and everything like that, so that like, as he said, they can precipitate it, you know, they can come there and put some other shit in your IV to pull you out of it.

if they need to. Exactly. Exactly. 

Frank: You know, they’ll throw you to lifeline if you need it, you know. But I guess like to your point of, you know, I guess expanding on that, you know, for my book I interviewed, you know, a recreational user. Of Ketamine to, to kind of get a sense of, you know, why they did it, what they got out of it, how they handled the safety aspects.

And the thing about this, you know, particular person was that they were they were very detail oriented and very kind of systematic in their approach. So they actually like did research. , you know, they checked out the source, you know, they [00:33:00] you know, they, of course they started small, they tracked like all their dosages and when they would take them and over what period they would have different effects.

So like, this person wasn’t like, you know, The average person, this wasn’t like a 13 year old, just like, oh, we got a bag of K, let’s just start sniffing. I mean, this guy was like, he approached it, you know, basically like a physician. And I think that’s probably one of the reasons why, you know, to him he reports, you know, having a lot of great experiences.

things that opened him up. Like particularly like when it came to his emotions and he really nev, he never really had any trouble. So I mean, obviously I can’t recommend that, but I can report that that’s, that’s what a real live recreational user explained to me.

De’Vannon: That is, you know what? . [00:34:00] We all have our reasons to be there. , we all had our reasons. Yep. And people, you know, you know, we’re like drawn to certain drugs, you know, I like, I tried like heroin, hated heroin. Can’t can’t, can des get as fuck away from me, the yuckiest shit on the earth. But homeboy can’t get enough of fucking heroin.

I try. I was, you know, a meth party girl. Really? So, Why it’s no different than if you go to a fucking buffet and you like the Hawaiian rolls. Yeah, but you don’t like the rye bread. You don’t know why the fuck you are drawn to certain things fully because we don’t know ourselves that deeply. Not, not to that level.

Like we don’t know why we prefer the color red over green. A lot of this shit is decided before we’re born. Right. And so I’m saying all that to say this is why we don’t judge people children . So, so you know, you have your vice, people have theirs. You know I never, I never [00:35:00] tolerated when I was a drug dealer, ran my trap house that like the cocaine users who wanted to judge the heroin addict or the, or the person who wanted to smoke cigarettes and felt ashamed even though we were shooting up meth of my life.

I am like we, we gotta get some shit right in our heads. People , , like literally a drug house full of every fucking narcotic known to mean syringes. Pipes, porn. And then somebody pops out a pack of Marl bros. Like, is this cool? Like, I don’t wanna be offensive. Right? Right. 

Frank: Like, I think we can accept that, you know, we 

De’Vannon: could find space for Marlboros.

Right. To like the crack pipe and the meth pipe. I think you’ll

Frank: no doubt, no doubt you, it’s gonna be alright.

No, you’re right. You bring up a good point though. I mean, let’s face it, like, one of the things that hopefully will happen is, you know, the government loosens up some of these, you know, restrictions on the research and then [00:36:00] ultimately on the use we’ll learn more. , which things are useful to particular people so that you don’t kind of have to go through like the smorgasboard and have, you know, maybe a bunch of experiences you don’t want.

You know, maybe one day it will be more enlightened where it’s like, all right, you know, they, this person should, you know, just smoke some tree. This person needs this other thing. This person just needs a microdose of something else. Maybe. Maybe that’s the 

De’Vannon: future. . I don’t see why it wouldn’t be, cuz half of those drugs have natural origins and roots, be it cocaine, heroin, L s D, you know, weed.

Of course all of that shit starts from a plant. Yeah. And so the pharmaceuticals you get in pill form, you know, they try to say a lot of those have natural based products. They start from plants and it’s true. And when they go mix all kinds of other shit in there as well. So I don’t find that much difference between cocaine.[00:37:00]

An appeal from the doctor cuz it’s half plant and half synthetic. So what, right. . So you know what, what way? And so, right, right. . So right now, Frank and I are clapping back at this whole war against drug fuck, fuck you Republican presidents for, for starting this bullshit ass war that you knew was just about.

Throwing people in jail, you put the drugs on the streets, made ’em illegal, you know, after you made your money off of it. Well, you still continue to make money off of it to this day, . Yeah, in my opinion, I have no sources to quote on that. I have read things, seen and heard many things, and you’re fool think the government doesn’t benefit from crime.

And and so the people who run the government more precisely, can you, do you think a person can become addicted to Keta? 

Frank: I definitely think somebody could become addicted. I guess, you know, perhaps like a, a deeper question would be, [00:38:00] is that like gonna be a biological addiction or more of a psychological addiction?

So, so on the first, you know, on the level of psychological addiction, I mean, You might say anything could become psychologically addicting, right? I mean, even going to stretching it to the point of what you’re saying about getting pampered, you know, by visiting different types of practitioners. I mean, you could develop, you know, kind of a I, I, I don’t know, like it is kind of like it could be a crutch, right?

There’s probably at some place in the spectrum where, , you know, something comes from just being a crutch to actually being like a useful, progressive type of therapy. So psychologically I think you certainly could, because y you know, generally speaking, you know, you feel good, you feel relaxed. I mean, you feel better than you do or you did coming in.

So I, I think that’s, you know, a factor [00:39:00] on the biological level. The way things are now, because you have to, I mean, unless you are getting it from the street the way things are now when you need to go to a clinic or you’re in a clinical study or something, I think it would be very hard to become addicted in that scenario biologically, just because you’re only getting, you know, so much and with a certain frequency.

So, you know, for me, for instance, I usually go about once a. and, you know, do I look forward to that month? Or that next treatment? Yeah. I look forward to it. I mean, especially if like, I’ve had a difficult month or, you know, I, I feel like, whoa, you know, it really is time for a booster. I look forward to that.

you know, whether that’s like, do I feel drawn to it? You know, like, I’m gonna break in your house or try to, you know, sell your tv, you know, to get it. [00:40:00] I’ve never felt anything like that. But I will say that one thing you may find really interesting, and I, I believe I touched on this in the book, is that starting as far back as the eighties in Russia, there was a physician who.

Using Ketamine to actually break people’s addictions. So he was doing some work with I think heroin addicts, and I wanna say also alcoholics. And what he found based on that work is something that’s actually still being used today. There are clinics now that specialize on deploying ketamine to break addiction.

And so that’s kind of fascinat. 

De’Vannon: You’re damn right. And that reminds me, it’s another thing I saw in those drug documentaries I was watching with they were using M D M A and maybe psilocybin two to break addictions. Okay. Yeah. And I was also going to say like [00:41:00] the addiction, a, the addiction risk is no more than say, same addiction risk when these doctors are pro prescribe you things that have addict.

Qualities to them anyway. So they’re prescribing you. People get addicted to pills from their doctors, then they start going, oh yeah, from doctor to doctor to get the shit. Anyway, so I’m saying like there’s no more risk with ketamine than it is with the shit you’re getting from the doctor anyway. 

Frank: So, yeah, I mean, practically speaking, like when you look at the opioid epidemic, right?

Mm-hmm. I mean, there are a whole, there are, you know, , I’m not sure what the current number of people is that, that, that are hooked on opioids. But I mean, like you said, it’s a good point. I mean, if you’re, if you know, how can we com be concerned about one and, and not the other, that’s like, you know, literally like a tidal wave of death

De’Vannon: Right. And I think it’s so cool. to use one drug to counteract another. But I mean, you see [00:42:00] that all the time. Just like we were saying, if somebody were to fall into a ca hole, they would put just a different drug into your system. Yeah. To counteract that. So if you’re addicted to meth and you use M D M A or ketamine and or shrooms to overcome it, it’s the same damn thing.

You use one drug to counter counteract the other . 

Frank: So yeah, you can get yourself in in quite stuck in a circle of. It can be very frustrating, you know? Because let’s face it, for most of us, the ideal is just to feel great and not have to take anything else. You know, it’s just like, Hey, I woke up, I felt great, and I’m good.

You know, that will be nice. I don’t have to put anything toxic in my body, you know? I don’t have to worry about, you know, drug tests or DUIs or anything, 

De’Vannon: you know? Hell yeah. We don’t need drug test DUIs or the $10,000 that goes with DUIs, [00:43:00] right? , yes. People. If you get a DUI or dwi, I driving under the influence of NT thing, alcohol, weed, whatever.

Be expect to pay at least $10,000. Okay. Imagine how much more drugs than alcohol you could have with $10,000 than . Fucking, okay, so the pain is the motherfucking police. Call a fucking Uber or get a friend. Don’t get behind the wheel of a goddamn car when you Right, right. We have more to do with 10 grand than to give it to the fucking legal system.


Frank: You can buy, you can ride a lot of Ubers for 10 Gs. Man, 

De’Vannon: look. Uber Luxe. V i p. Okay. . You can beat the Benzs honey. You can beat Benzs

So does your book have information on, you know, besides like what Ketamine is and, and all of the risks involved and things like that, does it tell people like how to talk to their doctors or where they can go to [00:44:00] get the treatment or any kind of thing like, 

Frank: Yeah, absolutely. Because, you know, and I’m sure, you know, you’re so familiar with kind of all these ins and outs, you know when, when when you’ve been introduced particularly to a drug, you’ve heard of a drug, but you’ve heard of it like in a illicit context or like a street context, usually people are afraid then to ask their doctor.

So if you just say to someone, Hey, you know, , you know, Frank, you know, he is been having these ketamine treatments. He’s doing great. You know, there’s a lot of, you know, blockage in, in people’s minds like, wait, wait a minute, is that, you know, is Afro horses I heard that’s just for the club. Or I, you know, isn’t that illegal?

Or like, where does that all stand? And so you know, in the book, I walked through, you know, people through like, here, you know, what’s the legality? You know, what’s, you know, what are you asking your doctor? You know how do you know if you may [00:45:00] be someone that you know, this, you know this treatment would be appropriate for?

And the nice thing, you know, these days is that, you know, as these clinics has o have opened up, You can call or, you know, sit down for a consultation really easily and, and, you know, you can bring your medical records and talk all the ins and outs. You know, can I, you know, still, you know, tri Ketamine, if I’m on X drug, you know, can I, you know, if I’m bipolar, is it safe for me or will it make me man?

So I, I walk you through a number of those questions and really, I just want people to know that this is perfectly legal. There are many clinical studies behind it, and the, the number of those is just exploding. You have nothing to be ashamed of. And you’re probably gonna meet a lot of people and along the way, whose lives have been [00:46:00] changed or even.

De’Vannon: Mm-hmm. . And then I wanted to point out, Frank’s website is called Find ketamine.com. On there you have information about like how to pay for treatment. It’s, it’s a, it’s a very changing landscape in terms of what insurance is gonna cover and what they’re not. It’s different for different states. So find the ketamine.com is Frank’s websites, so you can go there.

He has a kick ass blog that covers a lot of the topics we’ve talked about today that are also in the book. And on your website you can also book like sessions with you to talk and stuff like that. Can you tell me about what people can actually utilize your website for? Sure. 

Frank: Absolutely. There are, I, I’ve tried to make the, you know, information as available as possible.

So, you know, almost all the information I have out there is free. I, you can buy like some, what I call them as just information packages on my site where I give. , you know, like particular [00:47:00]reports on something or I even have one that includes videos, like of some of my own treatments. , which is very, you know, relaxing and reassuring when you can actually see the process someone’s going through.

You can see that they didn’t go crazy. You know, I didn’t jump out of the chair. You know, I didn’t start screaming. Everything was, everything was cool. So I have some of those packages available and then of course you can also contact me. I try to just kind of help people however I can. or we can schedule something, you know, more detailed sometimes also, like I will speak to, you know, groups of physicians or at a conference, something like that.

De’Vannon: something like that. We want something just like this. , right? Okay. And there you have it folks. So you know where to go. Find ketamine.com. You can get his Frank’s book [00:48:00] there. You can reach out to Frank directly, you can read through his blog. I find his website to be very thorough. It’s like, it, it is because when, when I, before I went to get my ketamine done, I was searching all over the internet and I didn’t know about his website.

You know, and it was like a lot of scattered information and I really found that fine ketamine.com pulled it all together. Had I known about you before I went to go see this bitch to get this fucked up treatment, I think that my treatment would’ve been more rewarding and I could have got ahead of the game because you think.

The lowest package on your side is like $9 and 99 cents, and the most expensive one is 49 99. That bitch charged 450, so I would’ve rather have paid you the 9 99 to get some fucking head smarts about absolutely because people, I want you to be aware that in this just there’s probably gonna be some vulture as doctor out there taking advantage of people.

I’m not trying to put fear in you, but true that’s not labor under the delusion that everybody’s intentions are going to be pure. So absolutely I trust Frank because he is giving you shit for free on his website [00:49:00] and more than enough information for you to work with. But also if you want to go deeper, then there, that’s there too, because the man’s gotta eat and pay his bills, so, so I fucked with Frank, but I don’t fuss with that bitch I went to for my ketamine treatment.

No, no, no ma’am. I don’t fucks with her. I don’t talk to her. No ma.

Frank: Man, that that sucks. You had that experience, man, like I’m really hoping your next one is the opposite. 

De’Vannon: Oh, yes, it will be in California. My homeboy Demi Wild, he hosts the hookup Horror Stories podcast, and he lives over in Los Angeles. I haven’t even told him this yet, but like at some point when I visit LA again, I’m gonna snatch his little cute ass up and he’s gonna go with me to the Ketamine clinic and babysit me.

So, yes, there you go. That’s Demi. If you’re listening, we’re gonna do this Ketamine date, honey

Frank: It’s good to take someone with you. You know what I mean? [00:50:00] I, I think that’s nice, especially if it’s like your early on in your ketamine journey. Sometimes it just feels relaxing. Actually, I know a physician who takes his wife with him and she just holds his hand through the treatment and he said it just makes all the difference in the world.

So he feels very connected. He feels very like open emotionally, and it’s very calming and reassuring. 

De’Vannon: Mm-hmm. . Calmness and reassurance. Well, I speak, yes, sir. I speak that Blessed Assurance all over everyone in the world whose ears are open and listening to this broadcast. No doubt. Frank’s LinkedIn Frank m Ligan is gonna be listed in the show notes, Frank m Ligans with an S.

So that’s pretty much all that I had. Was there anything that you wanted to say or bring up or 

Frank: talk about? Well, I mean, one thing I just wanna say is I, I really appreciate, you know, the work you’re [00:51:00] doing in terms of, you know, there’s so much and, and I don’t know, I guess it depends how conservative people are, but I mean, for me, I, I, I’m a big proponent of, you know, kind of breaching those you know, topics that are, you know, off a little to the left or things that people are generally embarrassed about or people, cuz I just find.

You know, it’s like an illusion, right? Like there are so many of us that fit into these different, you know, categories or have these different challenges, but when nobody’s out there really discussing it, you could feel very isolated. Mm-hmm. , you know, and I’m sure, as you know, I mean, so I just wanna say like, when I I didn’t, I didn’t you know, reach out to you just at random about you having a podcast.

I thought to myself, sex, drugs in Jesus. Like, this is a [00:52:00] man that’s willing to put it all on the line and really, you know, talk to the people that may not have anyone else to, to talk to. So I, I just respect that man. Appreciate it and it’s just been great being here with you. 

De’Vannon: Well, thank you. I appreciate those kind words immensely.

And so y’all, his name is, Lis, his website is find ketamine.com. You could find him on LinkedIn. And this show will be coming out soon. Thank you so much for coming on, Frank. I wish you champagne wishes and ketamine dreams . No 

Frank: doubt. No doubt. Hey, thanks very much.

De’Vannon: Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the Sex Drugs and Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at SexDrugsAndJesus.com or [00:53:00] wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.

My name is De’Vannon, and it’s been wonderful being your host today. And just remember that everything is gonna be all right.


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