Episode #32: Life After Getting Fired, Leadership Hacks, Heterosexual Hullabaloo in the Church and Unique Asian American Perspective with Leadership Coach Jerry Fu, PharmD, ACC


Jerry Fu was born in the United States, growing up in a Taiwanese family. He encountered conflicts at work, in culture, and within himself. He didn’t know how to handle any of it, and he didn’t know where to look for help. Worse, he lost a job because he continually avoided conflict with an upset boss. But getting fired was the wake-up call he needed. Jerry had to adapt myself and improve as a leader, which meant engaging the conflict he disliked so much. Ironically, his ongoing struggle with conflict became a fascination. Now, Jerry helps others take on the same challenges. Jerry’s clients experience three benefits:

1.Clarity in next steps to take
2.Confidence to take them 

3.Closure after overcoming the difficulty

Jerryis also a pharmacist and a leadership coach. He works with Asian-American
professionals on their career and life journeys. He focuses on resolving
clients’ conflict at work, in culture, and within themselves. His services
include one-on-one coaching, group workshops, and keynote presentations.

Beforestarting his coaching business, Jerry completed a Biology degree at Rice
University. He also attended pharmacy school at the University of
Tennessee-Memphis. Teaching a leadership workshop in 2012 inspired him to
become a pharmacy manager. He completed the CoachRICE Leadership Certificate
Program in spring of 2020. He is an ICF-certified coach and certified talent
optimization consultant with Predictive Index. His interests include travel,
cooking, playing guitar/piano, and lots of salsa dancing. If you’ve read this
far, then this poses the question: What can JFu do for you?


 INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to):

·      Unique Asian American perspective
·      Bouncing back from getting fired

·      Dealing with conflict on the job

·      Leadership hacks

·      Coronavirus disruptions

·      Heterosexual hullabaloo in the church!!!

·      Surviving loss of a business

·      Dealing with workplace conflict

·      Xenophobia in Harris County

·      Salsa dancing lessons and how they transfer into leadership skills

o  Command

o  Confidence

o  Creativity

o  Communication

o  Commitment



Website & Coaching: https://www.adaptingleaders.com
LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/34m6iop


Barking Up The Wrong Tree: https://amzn.to/3qSqN3F

Designing Your Life:

Designing Your Work Life:

The Advice Trap:




Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.com

YouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCM

Facebook:    https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopix

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannon

Email: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com



·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)


TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs


·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.





You’re listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right. At the end of the day, my name is De’Vannon and I’ll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world. As we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what’s really going on in your.

There is nothing off the table and we’ve got a lot to talk about. So let’s dive right into this episode.

De’Vannon: Happy new year, everyone. I hope and pray that your new year’s off to a magnificent start and that this year and the rest of your freaking life is full of splendor and might and valor and all the good things you could ever hope and dream for. Today.

I’m talking with my homeboy, Jerry Fu he’s a certified conflict resolution coach and a certified leadership coach. He has a shit ton of education under his belt. [00:01:00] What I liked the most is that he has a CoachRICE Leadership Certificate from Rice University, and that is a kick ass program to have gone through.

Now, in this episode, we’re going to get his unique Asian American perspective. We’re going to talk about. How to bounce back from getting fired, how to survive the loss of a business. And there’s some heterosexual hullabaloo that happened in the church that we got the tea on baby. And we’re also going to talk about how you can take salsa dancing lessons and turn that into leadership skills.

Enjoy our first episode of the new year.

 Jerry, thank you so much for coming on the sex drugs and Jesus, the podcast the day. How are you feeling today over there? And he H town,

Jerry: oh, I’m feeling excited. You know, the Astros are doing well, and you know, so the whole cities you know, in a frenzy, you know, look to root for it. But yeah, I am excited to be here this morning for

De’Vannon: well, the Astro’s doing, doing well is a, is a [00:02:00] rare thing. This, this, this pandemic has bought all sorts of anomalies.

Jerry: That’s true. Yeah. You’re gonna get it right to say enjoy it for what it is. You might not come back. 

De’Vannon: Gosh, I w when I used to live in Houston, I used to love going to the Astros games to drink my ass off and tried to get on the jumbotron and everything. It really wasn’t that concerned about the sport. I love the entertainment of it, all the entertainment, as we say, in the gay world,

Jerry: Yeah. Charles Barkley said it I’ll say this much on one of his shows. He said baseball. Just excuse to sit out in the sun and drink beer. 

De’Vannon: Hey, take what you want, leave the rest.

Jerry: It’s a fun time. Yeah. 

De’Vannon: So I’m very excited to be talking you to today. Because of your, your unique Asian American perspective in your willingness to serve your community and the population [00:03:00] as a whole now, What do you to talk to me about that? How you, cause you’re like a pharmacy doctor, which is different from like a regular pharmacist, you have a shitload of education behind you that was reading through your LinkedIn profile.

And now you own this coaching company. So walk me through how you went from pharmacy to the coach.

Jerry: Yeah. Yeah. It’s. you know, people don’t see the connection until I make it for them. Right. Because I lived it and I mostly, it makes sense. And then there was like, no, I don’t see. I don’t see how that, where you went from a to B. So we will, we will walk that path. Yeah, basically I’ve wanted to do something healthcare.

I wasn’t serious enough to go to med school. I found that out really quickly and undergrad that a few now serious about the reasons you want to become a doctor. You are not going to survive all the hoops to make each answer. For instance, you know, when my best friend from high school is a pediatrician, he’s always been great with kids.

He knew exactly why he wants to be a doctor [00:04:00] or a physician. For me, I just said, well, you know, You know, most Asians do this, so yeah, sure. I’ll go along with it. Right. It’s like, okay. I have to share. I’ll do pre-med by default. Right. And yeah, so, so on to healthcare and I, so I convinced a pharmacy school, you know, where I lived up in Tennessee that I would make a good pharmacist.

And so I said, okay, yeah, this is nice. You know people are going to pay me six figures to count by fives. Yeah, sure. That sounds like a great deal. And so the irony is that, you know, my mom wanted me to work for a chain pharmacy. She just said, Hey, you know, this is stable. I don’t want you to deal with you know, the employment challenges your dad had to deal with despite having two masters in chemical engineering and computer science you know, just work for this company and The benefits and, and retirement plan and whatever else are worth, whatever headaches you have to deal with on the clock.

And I just said, you know, at that point in my life, I was just like, I just didn’t care. And I just said, fine, I’ll go along with my mom’s plan for me. And quickly realized that it wasn’t for. But I was too [00:05:00] scared to, or too pessimistic to believe that I could still find something meaningful. I just said, well, you know, if those, those are closed, if already signed with this company and you know, I got to return my signing bonus if I break my year contracts.

So I guess it’s just going to stay here. And he just he’s. I just got, I just felt defeated. Right. I’m just like right now know, my mom wants me to marry this girl and I’ve got to just accept this job that I don’t like. And so at one point it did get comfortable. Like at one point I moved on to another store within the same company that allowed me to have the flexibility and scheduling that I wanted.

And all of a sudden I was like, happier. Now I’m scared to leave it. Cause I just said, well, you know, at this really great store and I don’t want to do this, but anyway, once that went away, right. I said, okay, I I’m tired of this. I need to find something else. And so I want to teach, I wanted to teach students in pharmacy, but didn’t have like a PhD or residency and things like that that could get me a conventional academic job.

 But a friend who worked for a pharmacy consulting company here in Houston said, Hey, my, you know, my previous position is open since I got promoted and I know you’re going to teach, do you want [00:06:00] to apply for this job? And I said, absolutely. And so next thing I know I’m walking away from a full-time job with benefits and, you know, nice things to move to Houston for a part-time job where I have to earn my way with this company, I was really excited about working for and 11 months later I got fired and it was just like, well, you know, what do I tell everybody?

Right. You know, I’ve leveraged my connections to get and to get an opportunity for this. And they’re going to ask us questions about why, and, you know, the simple answer is that, you know, it just, wasn’t serious about becoming an instructor. And you learn quickly also. You can’t do. You know, be better than 70% of the workforce.

Like you have to actually hold your weight and get things done because stories, they’re not paying you to give you stories. They want results. Right. And then, so anyway, so that’s when the rollercoaster got really weird. I ended up at a cast of cars, pharmacy where four of my paychecks bounced as I feel for crooked doctors.

 This guy was just the business owner. It was just bad news. Nine months of that, my, [00:07:00] my friends finally get me on with a different company that likes me, but can’t pay me more than eight hours a week. And so I’m like, great. I, how do I pay for rent and groceries this month? So they said, well, you can cover more hours if you work for us out in Austin.

And so I go out to Austin, you know, two and a half hours away with no idea what my life will look like at this point. And that was the summer. This is 2012. Now that was a summer where some friends in pharmacy who run a leadership nonprofits said, Hey, you know, A spot opened up. We know you’ve been facilitating on the fraternity side, but we have an opportunity on the leadership side.

Would you be willing to help out with that? And I said, absolutely. And so, you know, my pessimism applied to a lot of things in my life. And part of it was just my ability to be a good leader. I just said leadership is hard and I don’t like it. And I don’t want to look in competence. I’m just going to avoid it altogether, if I’ve never going to be good at it.

And now after teaching it, I said, well, what if I could be a good leader? You know, what would that look like in terms of work and effort? How would I care [00:08:00] myself if I do I could allow for this possibility I had the opportunity to move back to Houston, to take on a full-time position with, by then employer and proceeded to get written up because I was not keeping my technicians in line.

I was still too afraid of conflict to discipline people or even fire people. And, you know, management said, Hey, this is also a problem. And so you’re gonna have to. You’re going to have to face this. And so the transition became more apparent when, after, even after getting more leadership experience and which saved my career because the only reason I have a job now in pharmacy side of half liters experienced but I just got tired of the grind where I just said, you know, my, the jobs that offer the quality of life that I’m looking for, don’t last, usually more than one to two years, they’re like icebergs.

So like, oh great. You know, like I have more icebergs to hop to, but there’s still icebergs. And so I said, well, I’m tired of insurances telling me what I can and can’t do. I’m tired of trying to chase down doctors for scripts. But I love these leadership workshops. I love teaching them. I’ve been teaching them [00:09:00] since you know, 2012.

And I said, well, what if I had a career in this? What would that look like? And so I started to talk to some people in this space and see, you know, how do you build a business? Things like that. But I was still scared. Like I was still afraid of failure. I still sort of projection and a lot of ways still am, but.

And a pandemic captain. And I said, how am I slug? You cannot afford to wait to put this in the, you know, putting this off until I really have skin in the game. So yeah, as of a year ago, I finally put the LLC out and get the website up and you know, it’s flying by the seat of your pants, right. You’re just like, I don’t know what I need to do today.

Cause I’ve never had the worst of many hats at the same time. But yeah, that was the transition. Right. Leadership saved my career. It was a struggle. It became a fascination and now I want to turn around and help people the way I wish I had been helped earlier in my life.

De’Vannon: I appreciate that, that overview that you just gave me, and I’m going to go back through and break a couple of those parts down, and then we’re going to get very [00:10:00] granular with it. But, you know, I say I appreciate the Corona virus from the aspect of a disruption. I love how uncomfortable. She came along and shook everybody up.

You get a people who have careers that they never liked any damn way. Cheap ass bosses are actually paying people more. Like when you’re, when I drive around town, I see, oh, McDonald’s is finally paying what, $10 an hour. Okay. You couldn’t have done that before, but now that you can’t get people to come to work, now you’re doing it.

So I love it. So I appreciate the fact that you are motivated. My underwear store DownUnder Apparel 

 Kind of came about the same way I had been thinking about doing it for years. And then I didn’t do it until because, you know, I was, I was there in Houston, Texas working for CenterPoint energy, you know, and making good enough money that I really wasn’t motivated to change [00:11:00] anything.

But then when I was homeless, didn’t have anything. And I, and it was Janet. And I was like, oh, well, we might as well go on ahead and order some drives and see what we can do. 

Jerry: yeah. 

De’Vannon: So though I love, I love problems because of the way they motivate us out of our comfort zone. So what, what makes you different from every other coach out there?

Jerry: yeah, that’s a, it’s a great question. I mean, for me I think a big, big distinction is that my motivations are deeply personal. Just because I’ve been in so many situations of conflict that were uncomfortable and then you know, You realize at some point when you, you can’t back out and you can’t hide your head in the sand, like an ostrich and just start to run toward things, because you’re just like, well, I have to do something, even if I’m not great at it, I stopped it.

Something [00:12:00] like an example I could give is when I, on my second day as a church class director, I found out that one of the newer guys was sexually harassing women in the class. And everyone says, Jerry, you got to handle this. You, the director. Like you didn’t give me a manual. That’s not just handle it.

And I’m just like, oh no, it’s given me a plan that was giving me suggestions on how to attack this. They just said, you just gotta deal with it. Right. Another time you know one of my technicians was actively fabricating lies about, about me and it was just like, okay. I have to, I have to, I have to fire her, you know, it’s like, I don’t want to do this.

Cause she, she has seen those. You know, be temperamental and things like that. But yeah, part of it is just the fact that this is a deeply personal thing. Like I see it, you know, dealing with my parents and their expectations of what they want. Right. And and then I see it in my work relationships with people I don’t get along with them before, you know, it just be all defensive differential and just, oh, well, you know, let me just, [00:13:00] let me just play nice, even though I hate their guts right now or something like that.

 But Yeah.

it’s a combination of personal experience as a combination of my love for reading, because I love pulling you know, great stories and great examples to study from. Even if I personally don’t have that experience, but if I know a book that has something useful for my clients I’m going to be able to pull it and, you know, share it and see how they respond responsibility.

 And people have told me several times just that the quality of my questions is off the charts. So I’d say those are three things that people would hopefully be drawn to if they, if they think I can have.

De’Vannon: I can definitely feel the passion emanating from you. Because you have lived through the experience and there is a difference in between somebody who’s trying to give advice or tell people what to do. And haven’t lived through it versus somebody who is coming from their [00:14:00]darkness, which they’ve now turned into light.

 When, when I was talking to you about coming on the show that, you know, that was the first, the first message that you sent me had some of your personal experiences ended. And I was so impressed with that because there is no lack of people who want to go, come on my show or come on different podcasts to, to give out all this advice and everything.

And I’m all like, well, wait a minute, what skin in the game do you have? You know, what have you, you know, what have you been through? Why should people listen to you? What’s going to be the buy-in. How can you relate with people? And I can tell that you mean what you say, Jerry, because I was looking on your website through your different.

Packages and things like that. And first of all, you’re, you’re super transparent because you have the prices on your web. Most, which I appreciate because mostly people who are speakers, coaches, consultants will not tell you how much it costs. They want to book you into like the [00:15:00]meetings so they can try to convince you to pay whatever they’re asking, which wastes my time, because I’m on like bitches, tell me what the shit costs.

And so, cause they didn’t want to pay it or I’m not. And so you get that. Well, let, let’s meet. That you you’re coming at it from a very humble and open-minded and common sense. Common sensical, if that’s the fucking word is not, it shouldn’t be a common sensical angle because you’re like, look, it is what it is.

Here are the prices where everything, and you’ve got like 50, 50 different damn packages too, which is very impressive because I had never, ever, ever seen a coach with that many different options. It’s not really 50 all, but it’s probably like a good 15 or 20, but it’s like a lot in the, in the prices start as low as $45 to get your assistance.

So you’ve priced things with probably the pandemic and mine, and people’s different economic situations in mind. And that is so on [00:16:00] tempo for the times. And so my hats off to you for. For being real. And I can tell them what you’re saying is true. And I, and I, and I know that the way that you’re approaching it is different because the way that your brain, that your self is very different, like, like somebody who’s been through some shit I can.

Now, what would your ideal client be?

Jerry: Yeah. Yeah. Great question. In coaching, we like to say the idea of clients is who we were 10 years ago. So my, the idea of clients is yeah, is you know, Asian professionals in their probably mid twenties, early thirties that realized, You know, Hey, I did everything. My parents told me, right. I went to med school, I got married and started a family.

Right. I got the accounting job at the big firm, but somehow I thought this was enough. I thought I could finally take my gloves off and say, this is enough. And then you realize you’ve just inherited a whole different set of challenges, right? Like they don’t go away. [00:17:00] Know I thought, oh, fat paycheck and, you know, nice nine to five work at, by the nights.

And weekends was enough for me. It’s like, no, it’s not, you know, they didn’t tell you that. But they didn’t think about it themselves either. Right. They came from a different standpoint and so yeah, for people to realize, Hey, you know what you know, the, well, my parents told me, like I can under, I can understand, appreciate their background as, and the justification, but it’s not working for me anymore.

 So, you know, what do I do that? Right. Do I switch careers? Do I go back to school? And so, yeah those are the types of people with the questions that I want to help answer. So yeah, those are my ideal people to help.

De’Vannon: You mentioned parents. That’s a couple of times now. So speak to me about how strong parental influence is on children’s career decisions and life decisions, because you’ve mentioned that your mom had a girl picked out for you and everything, which I wasn’t aware that that was like betrothing people.

Wasn’t a thing. I didn’t think that was a thing [00:18:00] in Chinese culture, but you know who my, so how much of a, of an issue is parents getting all up in y’all shit really?

Jerry: I mean, it’s, know, it’s, it’s funny to think about that. I know a couple friends who are parents that are very Well, adjusted. They’re like, yeah. You know we don’t know what kind of professional view, we’re just trying to do our best to give them the tools. They need to kind of figure things out on their own.

That is not true for a lot of Asian parents. This is what Asian parents have. Right. They, especially for the first four and they’re like, we gotta make sure this one, like succeeds at life. Like he can pay his bills and he has the, you know, Chrissy job or whatever else like that. And yeah, I mean I felt like my parents kind of tag team to me you know, for a while, because. Early on. I haven’t shared this example much just because it hasn’t come up, but just to give people some window into what I’m dealing with. Right. [00:19:00] Like I remember when I’m like misbehave, even when I was like a toddler. So my dad would just, if he lost his temper with me, he just picked me up and throw me to the bathroom and closed the door and just let me cry my eyes out until like my mom would check on me after the fact.

And half the time there were times I didn’t even know what I did like, oh, I know it was like out my dad upset. And the next thing I know, this is how he felt like he had to discipline me to make sure I didn’t, you know, get out of line again. And then other times, right. You know, I would ask for a self with mass and, or I know he would teach me math.

And then I remember I was struggling with the concept. And so I proceeded to teach me two words in Japanese. Cause he lived in Taiwan during the world war. So we had to learn Japanese as well. They were under Japanese control and he said, head DAMA,

And she basically taught me to where it’s a Japanese to tell me that my head was made of concrete. And I could totally hear my paternal grandmother, my paternal grandfather, his dad telling him the same thing. You know, because this is [00:20:00] how we move people forward. And then somehow after I got to like mid twenties, that’s when a transition to more of my mom giving me more advice as to, to the, they know what to do with life and things like that.

Cause now she’s just trying to be protective. She’s trying to keep me from hurting myself or making it like fatal mistakes, things like that. And so yeah, she’s like, no, take the safe job, marry the safe girl and yeah, I mean, it’s, there comes a point where they care, right? There is no question how much they care about me.

They care about, you know, making sure that I, I, I have stability in my life and then I’ve realized in my own journey with them and also my. Leadership experiences that if you help too much, you’re actually hurting the person because now you’re enabling them and you’re keeping them helpless because they never learned how to do things on their own.

So, yeah, I’ve seen plenty of Asian Asian, you know, people that immigrant sons of immigrants, daughters of immigrants that are dealing with these expectations [00:21:00] even even as they’ve gotten to a point in life where they should be independent, but you know, your mom’s always going to be your mom. Right.

So, yeah. And matchmaking happens. It’s not to the point of, so other cultures like Indian culture, where this is still like a very big thing where they’re just like, no, we’ve negotiated this for you may as well accept it. It’s like, no, they’ll they’ll resort to matchmakers. If like, they feel like they’re floundering and like, oh, your dating.

Life’s not where it needs to be. Now we’re going to step in and do something about it. Right. So, yeah, it’s a, it’s very prevalent. I would say I haven’t met a lot of Asians who say that. Oh yeah, no, my parents are to our, it’s a factor in the conflicts I deal with.

De’Vannon: Well, what you just described to me was what I would classify as abuse.

Jerry: Fair enough to do that anymore. That’s when CPS gets involved right now, they don’t do 

De’Vannon: Yeah, we don’t, we don’t for the record, we do not throw our sons into the bathrooms and lock the [00:22:00] door, so, and then mom has to come rescue him hours later. We don’t do that, sir. And I’m speaking to your, your dad’s still alive. 

Jerry: Yeah, he is. 

De’Vannon: I thought you’ve referred to him in past tense earlier as I wasn’t. Sure. 

Jerry: Oh, no, no, no, no. He’s, he’s still alive and I forget the name. It’s cool. 

De’Vannon: That is so wonderful, but I don’t care. I will say anyway, sir, I’m speaking to your dad. We do not lock a little boy in the bathroom. We don’t like grown men in the bathroom minder, unless it’s some sort of fetish thing and they want it.

Jerry: That’s a whole other discussion. 

 We both grown since that it’s called. 

De’Vannon: so I’m just going to mention this. You’ve mentioned the When you were in church and the guy was harassing the woman. That is a very curious thing to me because people don’t often talk about the guy on girl harassment in churches. I don’t think I’ve ever heard that. Usually you usually talk about us gays and try to act like we want to come in there and molest [00:23:00] everybody’s children, which is bullshit.

So we had grown as men to get Dick from. We don’t need children but I’ve never heard anybody talk about like a head of a sexual harassment happening in a church. I just wanted to point that out because that’s very, very curious to me.

Jerry: Yeah, happy to unpack that. In fact, you know, we were joking you know, me.

and some other friends who were past directors for joking, that if we could compile all the stories of all the times, we had to basically run off like predators, just basically looking for cute women. They, because this is what, this is the mentality they have.

They say, well, you know, I want to get married. Whereas the place I could find, you know, quote like safe datable woman Oh, the church, I’m sure. You know, cause people are just up in this Sunday best. And when you realize some of the problems people walk into with, when they go to church, like, it’s just like, Hey guys, there’s a lot beyond that cover that you don’t see.

Right. But yeah, this is what guys do. This is, yeah. They just say churches [00:24:00] must be a safe place to find women to date. And so therefore I’m going to start going. It’s you, know, I’m not here to turn away. People like that are honestly looking for women or, you know, just looking to get married.

That’s fine. But you know, like, especially in the church, right? Like sexual harassment, like that’s never, there’s never a good place for that, but people to keep trying, well, at least if I’m not, if I’m, if this isn’t work, so I take it far from it, it’s like, you’re still gonna get dismissed. Like they’re not going to keep this around.

 I mean, I could talk about stories of Lino in counseling, Christian counseling, where guys will, you know, coerce their wives into having sex with them because they’ll use scripture to justify that. It’s just like, I’m the head of the household. You need to submit to me. And so, you know, if I want sex now, like, you know, you’re supposed to support me.

And I’m just like, how’s that working for you? Like, is this the really way? Is this really the way that’s the way it’s. You know, maintain a sex life is to coerce her. Like, are you even thinking about like the long-term effects of that and you know [00:25:00] what your long game sex life will be, if you continue to coerce her, but Hey, you know what?

Yeah. I’ll say this much before we move on like the church I used to go to has a very they have a very love, hate relationship with failure. It’s like on one hand they want people to get married and they’re just, they’re just like, you know, marriage, isn’t the end of job. It’s like, it’s a catalyst from a charity.

Yeah. Go get married. But as soon as guys start to ask girls out and they say no, or, you know, they say, or, you know, they break up and things don’t go as expected. All of a sudden they’re like, oh, you know, shame on you. You shouldn’t have done that. I feel like now she feels unsafe and, you know, frustrated or whatever.

And it’s like, like you can’t have it both ways. And then they’re like, why, why are these guys. Right. Like, how come no one’s asking about girls anymore. It’s like, cause he shamed them. Like you, you told them, oh, you did a bad job. It’s like, I’m not, I’m not denying that some guys maybe live a little help or a little coaching and how to approach women in a way that they would actually engage well.

But that’s the problem, right? Instead of studying, Hey, you know, thank you for having the courage [00:26:00] to ask that girl, Hey, like where do you think things went wrong? Hey, maybe you tried this. Maybe you try that. You know, maybe you take a shower, maybe you brush your teeth. Right. You know, things, it’s just, it’s ridiculous to me because they’ll because that’s happened to me once that, you know, I tried to ask out a girl, I did it in a way that, you know, it was public.

And I realized I was trying to put on the spot. I’m just like, no, I just want to go for it. And then everyone’s just like, oh no, that was bad. Like he shouldn’t have done that. Like just don’t do it anymore instead of Hey, maybe next time you ask, if you ask a girl to do it, don’t do it in front of the friends where you kind of, you know, put her in an awkward position.

Right. You know, there’s a more constructive way to deal with that, but yeah. Overall, yeah. It’s the churches still want you to know about this, right? Cause then they’ll say, well, let’s, let’s go along with this. I don’t want to go to that shirt. It’s like, well, you know, now you’re just hiding things.

And now this isn’t about broken people, trying to find a place to heal. This is about you trying to build your machine and make sure that things are so polished. So then now people feel ashamed to bring things up that things are going poorly. But yeah. Anyway, I’ll [00:27:00] I got rubbed up there for a second. So let me back off,

De’Vannon: Oh, you, you preaching to me. I’m not, I’m not even going to say anything to ’em to follow that up. And it’s gonna make me a little note because I may have you back on the show so we can spindle some church.

That is a fascinating aspect of you, sir. I do appreciate that now. So you had mentioned, you got fired. I want you to, in one of your blogs, you talk about some emotions and y’all, he has a pretty cool blog on his website drafting leaders.com, which will be in the show notes. Can you talk about some emotions that happen?

Anger, anxiety, disappointment, helplessness. Okay. So a lot of people have been laid off and fired because of the pandemics that’s happening so much right now. Can you, can you talk about some of the unexpected, [00:28:00] unexpected, perhaps emotions that happened when you got fired?

Jerry: yeah, sure. Yeah. For those of you who yeah. Who have been through a situation, whether you lost your job fairly or unfairly, right. Mine was fairly like, I just didn’t get the job done. So let me preface this by saying that no, I deserve what I went. I got I say that to condemn myself. I’m just saying guys, when, if you don’t get the job done, don’t spend to keep your job, right?

 Yeah, at first I was intimidated because when the guy, you know, and the head of my department, you know, told me on a Friday afternoon, Hey, you need to come speak to me. I was like, well, you know, writing’s on the wall. It’s calendar. I knew that he didn’t maybe with HR earlier, so this is kind of like the formality of What to do with it, you know, proceeded to walk into his office.

And all I could do was remember to maintain eye contact, because I knew that even if I looked away because of shame or deference, like he was going to tell me to, you know, look at me when I was talking to them. Right. So I [00:29:00] I’m intimidated and all I can do is just kinda, you know, take the lumps and then tell us it’s my last day.

And I’m just stunned. And I’m just like, oh, like I knew it was coming. But like when the, when that final punch landed, it was just like, oh God, just sort of stunned because now, you know, I’m, I moved to Houston, you know, for this job. I, you know, my old position at my previous company was filled. Like they weren’t going to take me back necessarily.

I couldn’t count on that. And so, you know, I’m just saying. Stunned and disappointed and, and ashamed that I, you know, I, I felt like I wasted this opportunity or this opportunity was no longer available to me, you know? And I thought, oh my gosh, you know, all my friends are going to ask questions and some people are going to like, judge me or be disappointed with me.

Like, how could you let this happen? Right. And yeah, just even though I only lived four and a half miles from work, that was the longest drive. ’cause, you know, I had to return my parking pass and give back all my access materials. And then what [00:30:00] really hurt the next day. I mean, I knew they were going to do this, but just to, to experience it, you know, they, they cut off my login.

They took away the, you know, they canceled all the, you know, my password and login name, things like that. So when I tried to log in and they know stuff the next day, just to see if it was still work, it obviously didn’t. I said, wow, you know, clean up crew came in and I’m just like, I’m just sitting here shaved my head actually, just cause I was looking for something cathartic to do just cause I wasn’t morning and you know, all this anxiety about, you know, what do I do next?

I don’t even know. And you know, I’m just sitting here just wondering if this would, if this is what would define my career, right? So all this uncertainty, all this anxiety, you goes through like the five stages of grief, right? Denial, anger, bargaining, you know, acceptance, all that stuff. But yeah, the first 24 hours, even 48 with terrible.

And that first Monday after that Friday, God, I didn’t have to go to work and I didn’t, I couldn’t go to work and I’m just sitting there thinking, how am I going to, how am I going to pay my bills? Like, you know, how am I going to keep money coming in so I can, I can [00:31:00] keep things up. So yeah, all of that was running through my head for sure.

De’Vannon: What saved your hurry?

Jerry: Yeah. Great question. It was a, it was a combination of things, kind of what I hinted at or referenced briefly in the first career path. So the first is the network. Well, both parts involved in network. The first part of the network was to kind of hand me a fish, right. To say, Hey Jerry, you know, we got a job you know we can, we can lie something up for you.

Right. And so that was the first thing. And for me to really. Take that with both hands and never let go and make sure I, I was faithful to honor my friends for giving me another chance to, you know, find work. And then the second stage really was yeah. When I was helping teach leadership, right. That kind of helped unlock some, you know, mental possibilities about my effectiveness as a leader.

And now I believe that if I put enough hard work into it and that I was willing to take constructive feedback and really [00:32:00] no longer avoid the things that I’ve been avoiding, maybe I would be good at this, but also to to see it modeled for me, right. They soccer, there’s the phrase that leadership is more caught than taught.

 And I will give a shout out to a pharmacist named Michael Negretti, who is in my fraternity. And I tell people, Michael, you know, saved my career. Like where would I be without him? Right. And I say this because. You know, I, I paired up with him to help GCs workshops. They paired me up with him and, you know, I was just so excited cause I knew, you know, I liked the guy so much.

I admired him for the work that he was doing. And so I got a firsthand look, you know, of how he motivated me, brought me along, helped equip me to really do my part well, and I thought to myself, why am I so willing to run through walls for this guy? Why do I want it to everything I can to come through for him?

And I said, okay, let me list things out. I had time to reflect, which is another thing. Number one, he’s fun to be around. He’s just a fun. He’s just fun. It’s not abrasive. You know, he gets along well with people and he’s likable number [00:33:00] two. He’s fun to learn from like he’s always reading in another interesting book or, you know, if he’s reading about some clinical study and other things like that, he is a learner and it’s fun to learn from it. So, other than. He doesn’t lose his temper. Right. Houston, even keel, like no failures to fatal where we can’t find another solution is always tinkering like right in the same way. He’s always learning. He’s always tinkering, always experimenting. And then bringing me alongside the age area. I did all this, you know, what do you think of this?

Like, what am I missing? And so he was continually inviting me to collaborate. So now it’s like, I feel like I, you know, I want to contribute something. Right. And then number four, work ethic. There’s no question how hard he works. Right? Like he should be the hardest worker on the floor and not in the way where people would start to use that to justify their own laziness, but in a way that inspires me to work harder as well.

It’s like, oh, Mike’s working harder than I’ve ever worked that hard too. So yeah, that’s what saved my career.

De’Vannon: So, what advice would you give to somebody who just lost their job?[00:34:00]

Jerry: Yeah. No. The first thing is give yourself time in the morning, you know, 24 or 48 to 72 hours, just to, you know, be S you know, allow yourself to be sad about the fact that yeah. There was something in your life that you were counting on, right. That you found some satisfaction in that you’ve found some identity in.

Right. Because, you know, what is the purpose of a job, right? Like you are exchanging time and effort to get compensation, right? So you take care of the company and the company in a ways taking care of you. Right. And so when that goes away, right. And you say, wow, like I, you know, I hate the fact that I don’t have this anymore.

It’s okay. Like, it’s okay to feel sad. Don’t let it devolve into self-pity. But, you know, just take time to say, Hey, you know what I have to grasp with the fact that this is no longer a part of my life. Right. And then the second thing I would ask have people do is to ask themselves, [00:35:00] well, you know, what opportunities this has opened up for me you know, and to ask them, well, now that I have this free time, maybe I, maybe I experiment with the career that I’ve always wanted to have, but never had the chance to, because I was under other social obligations or other things that kept me from really pursuing this.

Right. Another book to kind of throw on there, it’s designing your life or designing your work life by bill Burnett and Dave Evans, because they talk about this that they, you realize that your work-life is an iterative process. You know what satisfied you five years ago may not satisfy you now.

And what satisfies you now may not set aside of you five years from now. Right. You know, for me, pharmacy provided a lot of interesting moments and a decent quality of life, despite my ups and downs. And at the same time, I know now, like in five years, 10 years from. Like, I don’t want it. I don’t want a day-to-day pharmacy job, you know, and it’s okay for my bosses to hear this.

They know that the best ones usually move on to something bigger. But yeah, I I’d [00:36:00] say that would be, my advice is just to say, okay, yeah, grieve, reflect, you know, and then, you know, take action steps to really, you know, learn and interview and meet people in spaces that you want to learn from it. Just say, Hey, can I grab a cup of coffee and just kind of, you know, hear your take on things from where you are, and you’re not looking for a job you don’t have that you can if you want to, but don’t have these interviews for the specific purpose of getting, trying to get a job, just learn and get a better idea of what’s out.

And then from there, then you can flip to the key question, which is how it’s someone like me, you know, get involved in this space. Right? Because now you’re still exploring instead of saying, Hey, can I just send you my resume? Right. That will set people down pretty quick. You have to make that transition in a way that’s gentle and inviting instead of cushy.

Right. Because if I go out and have these interviews in a whip and people know I’m super job?

it’s like, you know, bad salesmanship, Right. If, if people are like, oh, you know, you know, I’m going to send it for a free call with Jerry. [00:37:00] And I’m just pushing at them to like, by coach upselling, my coaching packages the whole time, I’m not going to have any kind of good reputation or any kind of real business.

Right. Because they’re just like, oh, Jerry’s just baiting me to come in and then slamming me with stuff instead of really being the guide that I need to, you know, find my way in life.

De’Vannon: Right. Thank you so much for breaking that down, Jerry now. And you mentioned that you had some bounce paychecks from an employer before and in and on your website. I was reading through your blog and you give a story about it on a reboot store there in Houston, Texas, who had to close his business down because of around, when I, you know, he was very sad for his employees and everything who were relying on him.

And so what advice do you have for business owners who have had to cease operations for whatever the reason may be.

Jerry: Yeah. I mean, and, and seeing that example up close, I think you know, part of it is [00:38:00]just admitting your limits, right. You know, on one hand, we, I love the fact that business owners are going to, you know, stay persistent and finding ways to say, Hey, you know what? Like, as soon as we believe this doesn’t work, then you know that that’s on us.

Right. But I think if you realize, Hey, like this is not going to be a sustainable trajectory any longer. Yeah. You know, when, you know, the time is right, if you set some kind of mental tripwires to say, Hey, okay, if revenue just below like 50% of receivables or something like that, then okay. Now we need to hit a check and I need to because people can frame it two ways on one hand, it’s like, sorry, I can’t come through for you anymore.

I know you didn’t do anything to lose your job, but I still have to like go, but, you know, don’t just settle for that. Like help them get on the feet, right. Make referrals, you know, help them, you know, help light a path for them so that they can kind of go through this process and start, you know, pursuing a job and other jobs that you know, that would help pay the bills and things like that.

Cause that’s one thing that people, [00:39:00] I think overlook is to say, oh, you know, these businesses closing so sad and it’s like, yeah, on one hand, that’s true. Like I’ve, I’ve lost a lot of great restaurants because you know Corona took them down. Like the Luby’s chain has gone, snap kitchen is gone and both had their sheriff fans.

Right. But as last I checked, right, there are plenty of people who are burnt out, like who are still employed. Right. So it sounds like there’s, there’s still no shortage of work that needs to be.

done. It’s just a matter of these people who lost their jobs to, you know, take take you know, another snapshot of the work that’s still out there and say, okay, which work do I want to do?

Right. Maybe that is the opportunity to free yourself up to, you know, start your own business or do other things in this space. And now that you you have the blessing of starting up to the market’s been disrupted, so you don’t have to start on a plan and that, oops, Corona hit now. Oh crap. I lost my, I lost my company or lost my job now.

It’s like, no, like the wave already came and now you can build a new sand castle. Right. So, you know, see what happens. 

De’Vannon: I love that analogy. The wave already came and you can build a new sand castle. Mines will [00:40:00] be three fucking stories. 

Jerry: There you go. 

De’Vannon: So Jerry, I want you to give me an example of some coaching that you did on any client of your choosing. I want to know what the problem was, what you did to help them, and then what the result was.

Jerry: Yeah, sure. Yeah, let’s give him some real give him an example with real meat to sink their teeth into. So I think one of the, one of the best examples that I heard from a client was you know the client was working for a very temperamental boss. She was managing a studio and you know, the boss was always very vacant his expectations and she would try to ask him, how am I doing?

And he’s like, oh, this is. But there was one day where it was after hours and the boss called and she was off the clock, so she didn’t pick up and he just blew up at her the next day. It’s like, how dare you out of that? I don’t think you’re committed to those thought about, it’s like, well, you know what, like, where’s this coming from?

Right. You know, last I checked, you told me I was doing a great job. So, you know, where’s this coming from? And you know, so she calls [00:41:00] me on a Thursday night and you know, she’s like, Jerry, how do I navigate this? Right. Like, I really, really upset. I’m afraid I’m going to say something that’s going to you know, either cause me to lose my job or things like that, because now I feel like I’m not say nice.

And so I said, okay there’s two kinds of co coaching approaches, right? Like the one that I’m certified in is you know, ask a lot of questions. Let the, let the client design their own solution. And, you know, that’s ideally, you know, the default, but in this case, like if she has no frame of reference to work from now, you know, she needs more of like an athletic coach to say, okay, when you get on the field, right.

I need you to look out for this and that and be ready to do this. And so yeah, we just said, okay. And this is in kind of in the framework that I, that I mentioned on my website with the PDF that I have available basically you have to, you have to imagine what would success look like? Like what’s a successful conversation for today.

Right. And so she thinks, okay, well, you know, we want to get that to a point where we can reconcile you know, that we can have [00:42:00] a better understanding of what the job requires and things like that. So, okay. What are, what are some key things you want to be sure to address? You know, what are some key things you want to be able to say there to your boss?

You know, and so, you know, she told me, I said, okay, don’t just write those down, rehearse them in a mirror. Right. Study, your tone study your posture, study, how you’re coming across when you save these things. Right. And then, you know, practice with a friend if he needs to. But yeah, point being right, like get, kind of get strong in a dojo before he get back out on the street and mitigation anything.

Right. And then, yeah, fine. Take that 10 seconds to Paris to initiate the conversation. Hey, you don’t have to be like, okay, I’m strong enough. It’s like, no, you seem to get the ball rolling so that you can’t back out if you’re scared. But you know, if you’ve rehearsed enough the way you need to then yeah.

And then believe that you have that possibility that you can get back to working a strong working relationship. They might not be perfect. It might not be, you know, like the best where you’re happy to see each other. But as long as you get to a point where you can trust [00:43:00] and respect each other at that in a professional sense, that should be enough.

And you know, the email I got from her. Afterward when, you know, she managed to navigate that conversation and kind of, you know, find that closure, right. Instead of letting all that frustration, state Pence up in her and you know, for her to tell me, I don’t know how I would’ve gotten through this without you. Like, I read that on a Saturday morning and I was.

just so, I mean, I’m getting, I’m getting singles now. It’s just thinking about it, telling you this.

De’Vannon: I love the fact that, of all the, of all your experience and all the work that you’ve done. You, you chose an example that was you working like one-on-one with a person. And so that, that, that, again reinforces how, how personally invested you are in what you’re doing, because, you know, you deal with larger groups of people, you know, in the workplace and everything, as well as individual people.

And so I’m very impressed and very happy and refreshed as the right word, refresh that, you know, your go-to, you know, is, is, you know, is this getting back to why you’re doing [00:44:00] what you’re doing is to help ultimately individual people at the end of the day. And And so thank you for that, Jerry. Now you of course you bill yourself as a coach for Asian-American leaders, you know, because you’re coming from that background.

I want to know to what extent and if any book, both before COVID, and now that you’ve seen any sort of xenophobia, any sort of hatred against your people in the, how that if that’s played a part in the workplace and in your coaching or not.

Jerry: Yeah, great question. You know, thankfully for me I have not had any hate directed by way. But that being said, I mean, Houston is, is, you know, has this own share of, of xenophobia that is still evident today. The example that I can share is this is that a couple of years ago, I learned that Chinatown in Houston [00:45:00] was actually built on discrimination.

And what I mean by that is it said, Hey, we don’t like all the Asians, we’re going to make it live in the Southwest part of the city. And here’s the insult to injury through. And it is that a found out that they divided up the voting district in such a way where they couldn’t concentrate all the people into One districts where they can actually have a a political voice.

Right. And so just because discrimination is not causing direct, like physical violence doesn’t mean it’s okay. They’re like, oh, well this is just silence oppression where no one’s really getting hurt. It’s like, okay, no, no, no, no. Let’s let’s unpack this a little more and not be afraid of that anymore.

Cause we you know, OCA the local organization of Chinese Americans, they have all sorts of political advocacy workshops because they know that Asians are more likely to be screened at voting districts to be sheriff they’re actually legitimately citizens. They know that, you know, numbers are stacked against this.

Right. To think that, oh, like we can’t accept too many Haitians. Cause they’re like, you know, wrecking our grade curve or things like that. It’s like, no, that’s, [00:46:00] that’s that’s that’s not cool. But yeah, I’ll admit, it was reading about some of the hate crimes and like Atlanta and then New York, you know, where it’s just so prevalent.

And you know, when you hear about a lady who had asked it’s like poured on her and things, and you’re just kinda thinking, you know, like, and to talk to people about the Chinese exclusion act, right? Like they called it the Chinese exclusion act. They had the audacity to say this, this is specifically to exclude Chinese people.

And then, you know, for them to say, oh yeah, we’re past that. It’s like, I don’t know, guys. I feel like the more things change, the more things stay the same.

De’Vannon: One of those sneaky bastards over there and used to how dare they.

I’m pretty sure I’ve been through that. Chinatown’s since when I live there now I’ll never look at it the same then there’s, I’m hearing that there’s so much more that you, that you know, and can say about the xenophobia targeted there in [00:47:00] Houston. And so when I have you back on, besides the billing, the T on the churches are going to spill some of that good old Southern Houston tea is well, darling.


Jerry: stories for you for sure. 

De’Vannon: Yeah, I was going to get good. And you know, reading is fundamental is a mama Ru Paul would say. And I think, I, I think our next interview, we’re going to read some bitches , some church bitches and some, some Houston sounds like that’s some Republican nonsense on over there.

So let’s talk about your salsa dancing. Seeing when I, I was so thrilled, thrilled to see that you are a confident enough in your manhood and all of your shit to to, to also be a salsa dance dancer that put it out there on all of your. [00:48:00] Platforms and everything like that. None of the words that I’ve said today have phased you.

And I’m very, very, very, very impressed with you as a human soul. And I used to take hip hop dance and like funk at planet funk and Houston, Texas under Shawn Welling. And then I also taught hip hop when I was in the air force for a group of little eight year old girls for like a season and stuff like that.

Cause the instructor, she ain’t have, no, she didn’t have no soul saying no flavor. You know, she’s a white girl, you know, I love my white people, but you know, not all y’all hip hop inclined. And so, and then kudos to her because she understood her strengths and what she could and couldn’t do. She was like, I can’t do hip hop, but I believe you can.

And I was like, Okrrrr!, I got you.

Jerry: In a way that’s complimentary, not stereotypical. Oh, you’re black. you.

liked hip hop and fried chicken, [00:49:00] right? I mean, come on. And they’re just like, I resent that you’re right. But I still resent that. 

De’Vannon: Right.

So and so no, no two words is my dead aunt would say no truer words have ever been spoken. And God I’ve taken salsa classes there and Houston as well, you know, it’s like big deal. You know, the Hispanic influence is a big deal. Lots of fucking drunk nights with sauce, like chips and salsa, salsa, and margarita is Margaret Reed.

And so I want you to tell us what would your initial sauce and inspiration was? My favorite blog on your website is the one about salsa. And so what, what y’all, what Jerry has done is he’s taken and he’s pulled the lessons from salsa out and converted them over. Transfer them may the pilot of the transferable skills, which transfer from the salsa dance floor into the business world.

Much like you would say, like from [00:50:00] sports, but dancing is as good of a sport to me as anything else. And then you broke them down and we’re going to go through each of them, command confidence, creativity, communication, and commitment. One by one. But tell me what, when, when did you first think I want to do salsa?

Jerry: Yeah, it was it was kind of just an unexpected thing, really. My freshman year at rice they had a spring formal with the salsa theme and the lesson was terrible, but then like they just taught us like a couple of basic steps and the thing nothing really to shout about. And so, you know, me and my days later trying it out or just like, this is boring and difficult and we’re not neither of us to having any fun.

So I’m just going to leave it alone for a while. Right. That failure averse. And that kept me from so many things. I just said, I’m just going to shelf this like forever. And then it wasn’t till I got to Memphis for pharmacy school. When a friend of a friend was actually trying to start at the scene in Memphis.

And by my third year in school, I was tired of studying. And my, and my GPA kind of gel to a point where I could like, like nothing too [00:51:00] high or too low, really like change it. So I just said, you know, I’m just going to spend more time. Dancing and investing in lessons because I’m just tired of studying. So actually got somewhat decent at it and started to get to a point where I just enjoyed it.

I even bought my own DVDs, you know, this study of it on my own. And then right, as I’ve got to a point where I was comfortable, social dancing, I graduated, I moved to Knoxville where there is no salsa. There was swing dancing, which, you know, I, at one point I loved and learned, but that was like, at this point I was hooked on salsa.

And so I went through this really unproductive cycle of like lack of confidence, but I miss it. And then, you know, so I want to go and try dancing it, but then rusty and then, you know, I’d get just a glimpse of what things could be and then it would just shut down again. And then even after I moved back to Houston, 11 years ago Most of the friends I initially made the second time around in Houston were into two-stepping.

And so I was like, well, you know, peer pressure, here we go. Let me just learn how to two steps, which you know, which is still dancing in a way that still helps [00:52:00] me with my confidence as the answer. And then, so finally in salsa was dormant. That was, I was still going to occasional socials, but again, still in the same cycle, but it wasn’t until 2014, when a Venezuelan friend invited me to a free salsa dancing event at the downtown aquarium on Bagby.

 And there was this one hot blonde there. That was a really good dancer. And I, I have to, I have to dance up there and, you know, I get a chance I’m like locked in, you know, like I’m not freezing up. I’m not forgetting moves. I’m just like throwing everything I can on the table. And, you know, she gives me a hug at the end and I said, why did I stay away from this for so long?

And then I’m like, okay, I’m back. And so, yeah. Got burnt out on church volunteerism and replace it with salsa?

dancing. I was a whole lot happier. So that’s a, yes, it’s been a regular thing ever since. And then the funny thing is just to see it Come full circle where rice started an actual salsa club about five years ago.

And when I jumped in it clearly. [00:53:00] Got to a point where I was better off helping us and start from the chest, trying to take, you know, like, you know, cheap lessons from here. And yeah, it’s just been great. And also, you know, me and a couple of the dancer friends, occasionally we’ll also even host dance lessons as fundraisers to raise money and awareness for causes we care about.

And so it’s just been this generosity model where it’s just fun, where, you know, we get to teach and elevate the quality of dancers and people get a quality lesson and then, you know, good causes get support. So yeah, dancing is just been such a big part of my transformation because now right in the same way, leadership.

Oh, salsa dancing. Oh, I couldn’t be good at this. Well, what if I could, if I put enough work and wow, this is amazing. I have to keep doing it and that one, I want others to enjoy it as much as I do. So. Yeah. That’s kind of the journey.

De’Vannon: Come on dancing with the stars. I look forward to your debut in bay. Okay. So the first thing command that you say this step means, or this aspect of salsa means you have to take care of the people you were leading and know where you are taking them. Give me more.

Jerry: Yeah. Yeah. [00:54:00] Basically, right. You have to know what the in dancing, right? It’s like, you have to know a couple moves ahead and it kind of queued up so that you’re not just like forgetting what it is. It’s like, you have to have a target in mind. It’s like, well then it’s not even about the movies. It is.

I want this girl to enjoy dancing with me. Right. And so same thing with your team. It’s like, I want my team to have a good day and put by having a good day, we hit a financial target and you know, we’re communicating well. And so when you are confident in what success is for them, not just because you want it, but because you know, it’s in their best interest things go tend to go a lot better for you.

So yeah. Command this, just being, yeah. That having that, I’m going to set a good tone when it comes to a good work environment or being a good dance partner. 

De’Vannon: Hey, nothing like a boss in true control. Be it. I was going to say a man in control, but you know what? It could be a woman to tie me up, baby, time me up. And then confidence. It says in dancing, confidence comes from. A solid grasp of fundamentals, [00:55:00] which includes learning moves and how to recover when you mess up.

Jerry: Yeah. You know, you can’t afford to be knocked off your perch, right? If you, if someone kind of throws a curve ball your way, there was a, if there was a hook you’re not ready for a boom. Right. And then you’re like, okay, how do I recover? Right. They don’t talk about that. Cause a lot of leaders and I mean, that was true for me too.

Right. You think you go in and you’re like, okay, act like I know what I’m doing. And then someone just hits you from the side or an angle. You’re not ready for it. Then all of a sudden, you kind of cower and it’s like that we can’t afford to do that needed to be ready for anything that things are valued.

So part of it is just learning on the fly. You’re just like, okay, well all right. If all else fails, I’m just reset. Let me hear things. Okay. Let me, let’s, let’s go back to what we know is good for us. So yeah. 

De’Vannon: All right. And creativity says the best dancers are not predictable. Rather. They use variety to keep things interesting for their partners.

Jerry: Yeah. The gauge I use at work, because I have at least one to two technicians that like to be on this and we’ll have a morning [00:56:00] huddle for daily. And my gauge as to whether or not the meeting is interesting enough is whether or not they actually put down their phones. Excellent. Listen to me, without me telling them to.

Right. So if I’m telling a compelling story, right. All of a sudden, all of that got my attention. Okay. Now, now, now I know that I’m getting through to them right now. I know I can, I have five they’re listening really well. And so, yeah, so on one hand, the routine is good. You want that regular daily meeting because that helps you assess things and plan things and such, but to add some degree of variety just to kind of, you know, throw in a new spice in the recipe, rice.

So you’re not just eating the, this jumbo life is boring now. It’s like, okay, well, you know, let’s just, maybe we just add more cayenne or, you know, whatever else like that. Right. So yeah, just mix it up on them. It’s just more fun that way when they’re just like whichever we’ll have for me today. And it’s usually good.

It’s usually a good mentality because now they’re open to what I have to share with them. 

De’Vannon: Preach and okay then communication. The epicenter here was [00:57:00] that finesse is better than force.

Jerry: Yeah.

 You know, I, I, one had we joke about this dancing where you can’t just food feed your moves. You’re like, I’m going to turn you to the right now. Like you’re not going to be able to say those things over the music, let alone everybody else. Right. You got to be able to we say dancing, you know, be firm, but gentle.

Right? It’s like, there should be no question as to where you want them to go. And to do it in a way that doesn’t like shovel, right. Or like jerky movements, but you want a very smooth fluid ride, right? Like I think the best analogy I heard from from one other dancer friend was like, she’s like from a follower standpoint, it’s like the best dancers, the best leaders are like rollercoasters.

Right. They just kind of lead you on this journey and there’s ups and downs and this variety. And it’s like, oh, wow. Like this is not predictable and boring. He’s not just doing the basic filling six counts in a row. So this is fun. So, yeah. And to make clear, those moves, it’s like, okay, [00:58:00] step here now, duh.

But to do it without having to use your words. Right. But you know, obviously work settings. Yeah. Be clear. And useful with, with your conversations, but and the dance sense. Yeah. It’s, it’s it goes beyond right. There’s tone and there’s body language and, you know, delivery and, and things like that.

So nuance everything, not just the words you’re using.

De’Vannon: So what Jerry’s saying y’all is you gotta be a smooth operator, 

Jerry: There you go. 

De’Vannon: come outside a and so then the last one is commitment and this, this says messing up does not mean you give up quitting in the middle of a dance out of frustration is rude, quitting on your team because you were exhausted as selfish.

Jerry: Yeah, I’ll give the, the here’s the specific example that comes to mind, right? This is as real as it gets. I was at wild west many years ago, actually close to independent. Like I told people it will be here until the rapture. It turns out they’ll pan down because all of them, all it took to take it down sad day rest in peace, [00:59:00] wild west let’s hopefully kick foot and Kickstarter go fund deal, get it resurrected.

But there was one time I asked, I tried to ask a, a woman to dance and she goes, actually, could you against us? My friend. Cause like you know, the guy dancing with her, like she’s the beginner and the guy dancing with her, like got frustrated, just like walked off the floor in the middle of the dance.

And I look over at him and she’s just like, I am such a bad dancer and I just thought to myself, oh, it just breaks my heart. You know, to let this one experience just, you know, again, it doesn’t, it doesn’t define her, but you know, if that’s, what if that’s the story she’s telling herself, right. Like, I can’t believe some, like, some guy would allow that to happen.

 So yeah, you know, and there’s times on the other side too, right. You know, some people like when I was still learning and you know, I’m stumbling over my feet and you know, thankfully the girls didn’t walk off. They’re just like, no, you know, I committed to dancing and dance. I might not dance with them again, but, you know, they said, Hey, you know, I honor this commitment to, when we say we will dance, we finished the whole song and it’s been for me to where it’s like, oh wow, I wasn’t expecting, you know, this level of [01:00:00] dancer from, you know, I, if I, you know, there’s one of them that, but you know what, no, I I’m going to be a good, I’m going to be a good dancer and a responsible dancer, unfinished a song and say, thank you.


De’Vannon: Follow-through till the end. I love it. So this just about wraps us but we’ve, I felt like we talked about three hours worth of at three or three or five hours worth of information in this hour. 

Jerry: Yeah. 

De’Vannon: Now I’ll always let my guests have the last word. Now this show here will air it’ll be the on the 6th of January.

So it will be the first release for the new year. So I’ll so for your last words, for your advice to the globe, I want you to speak in terms of the new year. 

Jerry: okay. 

De’Vannon: So go,

Jerry: Okay. All right. Let me take a second just because I don’t want to give something cheesier for tribe, would [01:01:00] I 

De’Vannon: going to take a moment. Meditate Luther, do what you need to do now. Meal Hoda, Engagio.

Jerry: If you’re, if you’re hearing this and this, the start of the year, You know I’ve, let’s take it. Let’s take a fun angle if he joined a gym. Well, we’ll make sure that you don’t quit in February. Yeah, well, no, that’s a starter. Let me do, let me do this. Some people have worked without you know, what what, what would help you live this year without regret? Let’s do that because yeah. Like what have you, what have you been holding onto for so long that you’re afraid to share with people that you say, you know what, this is the year I want to go after it because I understand that I only have so much time. I only have so much money and I’m tired of, you know, giving it to things to people that aren’t worth it to any longer. So yeah. What what would be that same?

De’Vannon: You know what I like that [01:02:00] because that’s the type of shit that is so about a state, like this type of shit, you know, this type of valuable insight, you know, that, that. It’s lucky. It’s like you’re working as in reverse. Is that a going, I want to lose weight or whatever. I want a new job, but why do I want it?

Like you go in motivation first and then the action will follow and, and therefore you’re more likely to stick with it. Look at you, you all clever and things that

Jerry: happy to help.

De’Vannon: I’d hire you as a coach. So so where can people find.

Jerry: Yeah, go to www.adaptingleaders.com. There’s that free PDF download on how to handle hard conversations. You can schedule a complimentary 30 minute call and the free book blog is all there. So whether you are on a tight budget or a medium budget, or if you’re ready for, you know, the Cadillac of coaching packages you know, hit me up and see what I can do to help you and to honor your budget preferences as well.

De’Vannon: Yeah, he has some really fun names or his [01:03:00] packages and on there, and I’m gonna look through there and see which one I can get. Who knows, who knows. I’ve never actually met a coach before that. I actually gave a damn on that thing until I met you. And I’m not just saying that because you’re on my show. I would hope by now that motherfuckers in this world understand that I don’t, that I’m not fake.

I say, what the fuck? I mean, and I say the truth, and so still know you, you, you I’m actually going to the, how you’re going to work with because you’re so much fun. Like your personality. Yes, it’s just, it’s just very, very, it’s quite bubbly for, for, for like a man who seems identified as straight. Like you don’t have toxic masculinity, you don’t have like a lot of the things that would put me off of people.

You’re very approachable. And as they used to tell me in the military, when I was a recruiter, you know, one of the supervisors would say, if they like you, they buy 

Jerry: Yeah. 

De’Vannon: in. So like, like you’re very, very likable and you sold me, [01:04:00] baby. You have sold me this day. And so adapting leaders.com, everything will go in the show notes and then we will drop this bad boy here at the start of the year.

And then everybody will be better for it. Thank you so much for coming on the show today, Jerry. 

Jerry: Thanks De’Vannon have a great day everybody.

De’Vannon: Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at sex, drugs, and jesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.

My name is De’Vannon and it’s been wonderful being your host today and just remember that everything is going to be all right.


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