Episode #53: Surviving Sketchy Sales Tactics, Fake Business Coaches & How NLP Plays Into Sales With Heather Wylde, Author & Biz Coach



Heather Wylde Smith is a native of North Georgia, raised in the birthplace of NASCAR and the Moonshine Capital of the World. She jokes that she’s a highly evolved Redneck/Hillbilly.


Although she has a Tragedy Resume a mile long, she is living proof that our pasts only define us — if we let them. She often says:


“Therapy kept me from jumping off a building. Personal Growth made me stop wanting to jump off a building.”


Through relentless pursuit of health and happiness, she has overcome: 

•  Stage 3 Breast Cancer

•  Mental/Emotional/Sexual Abuse and Trauma

•  Drug Addiction

•  And more!


Her tremendous success with personal growth lead her to become a coach. She received her initial coaching training through Coach U in 2009.

Today, she is the CEO and mad genius behind Wylde Coach LLC. 


She’s a Biz Coach for ambitious purpose-driven coaches, healers and service providers who want to expand into their next-level selves in order to attract dreamier clients, raise their prices & restructure their businesses for maximum impact, profit and fulfillment.


Heather’s new book (Online Entrepreneur’s Survival Guide) is available @  https://amzn.to/3mnUbxb


She’s available as a Guest Speaker/Expert and for Podcast interviews. Her blend of biz expertise, practical tips and outlandish humor make her a dynamic guest that your audience will eat up with a spoon!




INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to):


·      Pitfalls To Watch Out For In The Coaching Industry

·      Difference Between A Consultant & A Coach

·      The Hypnotherapy Of Stagecraft

·      NLP – Neurolinguistic Programming And Mind Tricks To Be Aware Of

·      How Trauma Plays Into Sales

·      How FOMO Is Used Dishonestly

·      The Danger Of Making Rushed Decisions

·      What Is The Soul Behind Why You Do What You Do?

·      What Should Be Included In A Contract

·      Possible Vs. Probable




Book: https://amzn.to/3mnUbxb

Linktree: https://linktr.ee/HeatherWyldeCoach

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HeatherWyldeEthicalSales/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/heatherwyldecoach/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/WyldeRomance
LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/3pwrmAN
YouTube: https://bit.ly/3JrNO6c




Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.com

YouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCM

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/

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Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopix

Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannon

Email: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com





·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)


TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs


·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)



·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levin



·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com

·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net




·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org

·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org





·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.







You’re listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De’Vannon and I’ll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what’s really going on in your life.

There is nothing off the table and we’ve got a lot to talk about. So let’s dive right into this episode.

De’Vannon: Hey, y’all has a wild is back with a brand new book. It’s their second time on the show. And I’m so thrilled to have her. Now, this book is called the survivor’s guide to entrepreneurship, and this book is going to help people avoid fake business coaches and bullshit like that, and how to avoid debt and regroup.

Now in this conversation, we’ve gone to explore how neuro-linguistic programming also known as NLP and mind tricks play into sales and the traps you [00:01:00] should be looking out for when talking about how FOMO fear of missing out is used this honestly, and what should be included in contracts before we sign them.

And of course, Heather and I share our old cocaine stories because that’s the type of shit we do enjoy the episode. Hey bitch, have a wild what’s the tape.

Heather: What’s up. 

De’Vannon: Hey girl. Hey N so y’all, we got, have the wall back with us for the second time, and we got some new shit to talk about. Cause he just dropped up fresh a book on the globe called online entrepreneurs, survival guide, how to choose the right business coach. And there’s some other little words after that, but I’m too fucking lazy to read them.

And but it’s a very beautiful pink, black and white cover book. And pink is very on-brand whether you have there, that’s [00:02:00] kind of like your thing. I’m channeling a living, John from Greece.

Heather: the pink ladies. 

De’Vannon: The pink ladies and then the pink version of that black cat suit that she had on at the, at the end of the moving, whether, when they were doing the other one in that wall, she had on the all black, well, when they did like the grease reunion thing, she wore a pink version of that. All black pants, patent, leather, leather suit, she wore pink version of it to the after party

Heather: I have forgotten that I’m gonna have to go back and I have an ex that that was his favorite movie. And so I’ve kind of steered away from it for like 15 years. 

De’Vannon: breaking up is hard to do. Okay. So just to recap, y’all Heather has survived stage three breast [00:03:00] cancer. She’s been through some mental, emotional, and sexual abuse type of things along with all sorts of trials. You had her own a drug addiction shit to deal with. And you know what, but prostitution, perhaps

Heather: you know, 16 work taken 16 years worth. I mean, it’s just a bit of prostitution now. 

De’Vannon: a little bit of pussy DLN on the side and stuff like that. Go along with the cocaine. You know, they do pair well together. We can just ask we can ask them that gates and the, the, the guy who wants to be the speaker of the house, who I pray never will be one of those Republicans. Cause their cocaine orgy shit, just, you know, that T does came out a few days ago.


Heather: Bored. 

De’Vannon: I’m not judging them for having cocaine or do cause I’m just judging them for oh, telling women what to do with their bodies.

Heather: Right? Well, cocaine and orgies is a really dumb [00:04:00] combination because for men it usually gives them performance issues. Meth is much better for orgies because it makes you hard and you can’t come for hours. 

De’Vannon: I’ve been in the room expecting to get my booty hole filled with all kinds of jazz. And it didn’t happen because the dude had coped Dick.

Heather: Hope Dick is, is a real fucking thing. And you know, for women, I’ve seen people, people fetishize Coke. It’s so funny. I remember being with this couple when I was escorting and they’re like putting the Coke, like directly on her clit and then like licking it off. And I’m like, you just numbed her cliteracy she is never going to be able to come.

It’s just not a good idea. Anyway, we digress. 

De’Vannon: No, I tried, I, I snorted a couple of lines of a hard Dick before, seem to mind.

Heather: Well, that’s because you were doing it. Like I was paid thousands of dollars, you know, to be [00:05:00] a coat mirror for somebody, like I just laid there and they just kept snorting Coke off my boots, my back, my butt, whatever. But then they were. Going to the door and shutting it. Have you been with these people?

Like I got to shut the door, so they get up and they shut it. And then two minutes later, they’re like, I got to go open the door and then they’ll stay in there and the door and they’ll look, cause they’ve gotten, they’ve reached their point of paranoia. That is annoying as fuck B the Coke mirror didn’t bother me dealing with the paranoia was like, oh, there’s nobody there.

De’Vannon: Well, I’ve been the paranoid one. So I can’t, you know, it is what it is. I can’t you know, I can’t really, you know, everyone has their roles to play, but nobody’s trying to intentionally hurt anyone. So you’re, they’re making your money there. They’re freaking out. Cause they did a bump too many. I’ve been there a few times.

Heather: Yeah, thankfully I’m, I’m allergic to Coke. And so if I snorted it, I would get a sinus infection for a month. [00:06:00] And so I would eat it, but it doesn’t give you the same kind of high. Right. And so I never got paranoid off of it. And I mean, you know, I wasn’t like, oh my God, you’re a deficient person for doing this.

I was just like, God, this is boring. 

De’Vannon: Those were the fucking days. Oh my 

Heather: were interesting, interesting days. I’m glad that I had them. And I’m glad that I don’t have them anymore. 

De’Vannon: The most, one of the most paranoid trips that I had when I had shot away too much meth. And I was at the VA hospital in Houston and I was, I just, I would just, I was hearing like keys jingle. I thought the cops were coming to get me and I’m in, I’m in, I’m in an emergency room. The cops just can’t walk in there and get you.

But I’m thinking, I’m hearing the sounds of them coming, like, like their keys and shit. And so. The nurses got so fucking pissed off with me and my paranoia. They gave me a couple of pills to take wait for three days, [00:07:00] I slept through the whole 72 hours. Coroner’s home. They were done with my ass.

Like this bitch said, babysitting my ass all the way down for three days, I woke up. I was in a completely new clothes. I was in the hospital’s probes. I didn’t change. They,

the doctor was using when those codes over things, a scrape under my foot, trying to get me to wake up and he was reading. The nurses are fail to tell him the hell in her. She gave me too damn much, met too much medicine, but she done with my ass. And so

Heather: oh, wow. Yeah, that, that was excessive. 

De’Vannon: Well, I am a Sagittarius. It’s not like this as for, into my demeanor. 

Heather: Okay. 

De’Vannon: All right. Y’all so Heather’s book is called online entrepreneurs. So in this book, she is trying to open your eyes to [00:08:00] the bullshit, the pitfalls, the scandals, hashtag a scandal and the, and the deceptions that tend to prevail in this whole business coaching mentor guru world.

Now tell us why you wrote this book and what qualifies you to have written it.

Heather: So what qualifies me to write it is that I have been in this world for 13 years, and I really both as a student of personal growth and as a coach, as a struggling coach and what I, and I’ve invested in myself over and over again, you’ll hear people say, you have to invest in yourself if you want to get anywhere.

And it’s true. But you have to be smart about your investments. And because I came in with kind of, to my rose colored glasses were a little too rosy, and I looked at this height, marketing is what I call it.

you know, where this false promises and they’re blowing everything out of proportion. And I [00:09:00] swallowed it hook, line and sinker because I was like, okay, I’m here to help people.

I’m a coach. These people are coaches. We’re all here to help people. So they’re not going to lie to me. Right. So I came in and was very, very, very naive. And I spent a lot of money and didn’t really get anywhere. And I spent years blaming myself for it as so many other entrepreneurs do. And wondering what was wrong with me.

I’m like, you know, I’m a very good, I’m very much a go getter. You know, I’m an action taker. I’m smart. I’m passionate. I’m a good coach. Why can’t I get this? And thinking there was something wrong with me. And then in the past couple of years, I started, I don’t know, talking to more people about this, I started to understand more and more about what’s going on behind the marketing, why I kept making bad decisions and still, you know, owning the, I made them, you know, but really understanding what’s going on with the marketing and the sales in the coaching industry that makes it really difficult to find the right coach.

And the book is [00:10:00] written toward new entrepreneurs, but is actually really helpful for more advanced entrepreneurs. People who are actually working with clients to understand why they’re still struggling, you know, while they’re not getting the $10,000 a month, $20,000 a month that everybody talks about.

 And it also, if you’re just a student of personal or spiritual growth or you’re somebody. Is interested in hiring a health coach, like the information in this, it’s really all about helping you to see the truth behind the marketing and the sales tactics, and know how to research and how to interview potential coaches so that you find the people that are actually going to help you make progress, as opposed to the people that are just going to take your money.

And they really don’t care if you get results or not. 

De’Vannon: When you say that Heather? I think about, so like when I was starting down under apparel that calm my clothing company, which I also have a numb here in Southern Louisiana. Not exactly known for high fashion, certainly not skimping man panties and things like that. 

Heather: Right. [00:11:00]

De’Vannon: No, there was a guy. 

Heather: Well, there’s That part of urban street.

De’Vannon: That one part of urban history.

There’s this guy online who has a store in Oregon. And and I reached out to him and I think I had asked him just to like, so some advice, you know, on like what to do and stuff like that, the sort of thing that I would freely give away to somebody. And he responded with like his coconut Salton packaging, but he has now he’s an underwear retailer who owns an underwear store, but he’s also trying to be a consultant too.

And he’s telling me, you know, I’ve got to fly him to Louisiana and pay him like however many thousands of dollars to to get his system down. Because in your book, you warn about this one size fits all thing. And I kind of felt like he was trying to do that. I’m like, wait a minute, you haven’t done a market analysis.

You haven’t, you don’t know how many people are here with the population is. You don’t know what, you know, what I’m selling or you don’t know anything. And yet you’re already telling me how much you’re [00:12:00] going to charge and what you can promise me is going to happen. This cannot be, you know, it didn’t feel right.

So it seems like some people may hop into trying to be a coach too soon because with him, and I’ve seen this before, like, so is it like an arrogance thing, you know, is he thinking more highly of himself that he should because he’s been successful on his one end or does he think people are that damn stupid and he can take advantage of them?

Is it a little bit of both?

Heather: So it was a couple of things, you know, there’s a couple of things that I see that are going on. Number one there’s a lot of people like Brendon Burchard comes to mind. A lot of people know Brendon Burchard and some of his stuff is really good. And some of the stuff is really inspiring, but he’s one of these big mega coaches and his, I don’t know, I haven’t watched, I haven’t followed him in years, but you know, as of five, six years ago, he was [00:13:00] still preaching that like, you don’t have to be trained as a coach.

All you need is. Your life experience something you’re good at, and you can monetize it, then you can make thousands of dollars and blah, blah, blah. So a lot of it has been created by the coaching industry, telling people what they want to hear in order to, you know, it was for these business coaches that get on and they’re like, Yeah. you know, you’re a brand new coach.

You’ve never had any training. You have no out, you know, you’ve never had formal training and whatever it is that you’re trying to do, yes, you should use, you should be charging people at least a thousand dollars an hour, you know, And they do this so, that they can sell their coaching packages. Right. So there is a lot of the businesses are unregulated.

 There is a certification there’s at least one like really respected certification process through the international coaching Federation. But. You know, even that whole system isn’t perfect, you know, and I don’t believe that you have to be certified, but you should be trained as a coach. Okay. So there’s, there’s number [00:14:00] one.

Number two, a lot of people will go through a business coaching program or they’ll have their own successful business and then they’ll decide, okay, I can help other people with this. And they don’t. Some of them are. Realize that just because something works for you doesn’t mean it’s going to work for somebody else’s business.

The one thing that God was doing right is he was calling himself a consultant. so the difference between a consultant as a coach is that a consultant comes in and they give you a system and they really don’t help you customize it and tweak it. They’re just sold on the fact that their system is gold, right?

A lot of people that call themselves coaches are really more consultants. A coach really should be asking you questions and helping you figure out what is going to be best for you. And if they’re are a specialty coach, like a life coach is really just asking questions. But if somebody is a business coach or some kind of, you know, weight loss coach or something, they should be teaching as well as helping you, you know, figure out what’s going to be best for you and your lifestyle.

And then you touched on the arrogance thing. And I had talked about this in the book. [00:15:00]There are narcissists and narcissists and sociopaths in all walks of life. They tend to be attracted to you know, politics a lot of CEOs and upper management, you know they just, they work really well in those environments.

And I believe that they are very, very strongly attracted to the coaching industry, the personal growth world, because it’s an opportunity for them to get thousands and thousands and tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of fawning fans plus make a lot of money. And they’re really good in this world because their arrogance, like when somebody is really confidence and confident and they have a lot of authority, it’s easy for them to sell to you because you’re like, oh, clearly, you know, they know what they’re doing.

Like they’re so confident in it. Right? So there’s a lot of different things going on there that, that kind of answer your question. wonder.

De’Vannon: Yeah. And so, so a big part of the purpose of your book is to help, to help people to [00:16:00] divine the nuances that will tell what somebodies intentions are. Because a lot of what I read through there, it’s like very finite details. You know, like one flip of the switch, one way to the left or the right could make the difference in between whether or not a person’s legitimate or not, or whether or not they’re a good fit for you or not.

These, there, there weren’t like a whole lot of big gaping differences. This is very, very subtle. A lot of these things that you point out.

Heather: Yeah.

It, well, they look gaping to me and thank you for that feedback. They look deep into me because I’ve been staring at them for so long. Right. But yeah, to somebody that’s new in the industry, like you come in and, or, you know, you’re just coming in And you’re like, oh, you know, I really want to learn Reiki or I want to Yeah.

gosh, I mean, I want to have better relationships and you’re just coming as an, as a consumer and you get online and it’s just like, you’re just inundated with so many people who are [00:17:00] like, I’m great at this blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

But if you don’t know how to right. Ask the right questions and you don’t know what it is that you really need, like you can end up in things that don’t fit. So for instance, one of my first clients, she had bought into a program that was, it was a business program and they were like, we can help any business.

Our system, our system works for everybody. Right. And she gets in it and it’s all about going live and she’s terrified of going on camera. So she didn’t, she didn’t ask the question. You know, she, she just got caught up in the hype of, oh, our business. Our system works for everybody. Just come work with us and you’re going to be, you know, you’re going to make so much money.

Your message is going to get out. Yada, yada. You know, we need to ask questions. It’s like, okay, that’s great. Now, how are we going to do this? You know, our, if you’re a business coach, you know, are you going to help me with Facebook ads? Are you going to help me by going live? Are you going to show me you know, how to [00:18:00] really monetize reels?

Like, what are you doing? Because there’s some things that are going to be more in our wheelhouse than others. Right? We need stuff. That’s going to play to our strengths and to our comfort level, especially in the beginning.

De’Vannon: Right. And what you speak about confidence, the confidence that people have and they project themselves. I’m remind, I’m thinking about like the charity I’m thinking about hitting the therapy. So like, when I was getting my hypnotherapy training, you know, they explained to us how, when people are like, say up on an elevated platform in our minds, we automatically believe they know more than.

But they don’t necessarily, they don’t necessarily have to have done anything to deserve it. We haven’t fact checked anything about them just because they have a suit on and they’re on a stage. Well, they must know more. It’s just the way we as people are. And so there’s warnings, you know, against that.

And it’ll, and why I’m saying that, so these, so these consultants, girls, whatever the fuck they want to call themselves, haven’t done this in a way with [00:19:00] either their social media, but bolstering followers, getting reviews on their websites or whatever the case may be. Preachers do it all the time, you know, through having hypnotic, acquires and bands and all these things to make you feel good and everything like that.

And you’re too busy feeling good with what the speaker consultant preacher is saying. And you’re not critically examining, what’s being said, you’ll do busy feeling good about what’s happening. So your critical mind has been defeated because you’re too busy with all the frills of shit, the Freeland shit.

And so Our news is the same way. 

Yes, news politics. Sure.

Heather: Yeah. Get you get people into their feelings and they don’t, and they turn off their rational mind and their critical thinking. 

De’Vannon: That’s exactly the way it works. Republicans and Democrats alike, but lately I would say more the Republicans because they don’t really, they don’t really push policies. You [00:20:00] know, they’re more like against, you know, who can we be against today? We’re going to be against the women who want abortions are going to be against people who want to get high.

We’re going to be against immigrants. You know, we’re going to be against anyone who’s not white and conservative basically. And and you know what, they got their little base that’s for that and that, and they’re all insecure in their own way, which is why they need to destroy other people in order to feel better about themselves.

And so. you know, I go on that tirade because there’s so much humanity, so much of the human condition. And when I say the human condition, I mean our weakness and our fallenness, the things that betray our highest selves wrapped up into this. And so we have broken people who want to go out and be consultants and girls and all of this and tell other people what to do, but they’re not perfect themselves.

Now, one thing I like about you like you have a, a chapter line in here, it says making money while being a major [00:21:00] force for positive change in the world, you know, you always tie your consultant, your business in with some sort of spiritual element. So that lets me know that you don’t lose the the importance of the person that you’re dealing with.

And I think that this happens a lot, even in the one size fits all thinking like the guy from Oregon was trying to do with me, or like what you’ve seen and then not looking at the individual, you know, they’re more concerned about the process than the person. So why do we allow ourselves to receive this sort of abuse?

 When somebody is dealing with us and they’re just hitting numbers and figures and promises, and they’re not really seeing us, but we’re going to go and give them our money anyway.

Heather: Yeah. So interesting question. So there’s, I had a [00:22:00] conversation with somebody who was a kind of trauma informed. I’ve had a few conversations while I was writing the book. And a couple people were like trained in NLP and neuro-linguistic programming when used consensually and we’re, you know, by the light side of the forest by a Jedi is an awesome thing.

Like it can be deeply, positively transformational. The problem is, is that it’s a subtle form of hypnosis. And so if you’re using it in marketing and sales, which is what is happening you’re, it’s really, it’s, it’s really like your mind raping people into like paying attention to your marketing and buying from you.

And I had another conversation with someone who specialty is in like regulating the nervous system, right? And people who need the most regulation of their nervous systems are people who have endured a lot of trauma or endured any trauma. Any, any trauma is, is Congo can dysregulate you. Right. And I asked and I said, do you feel like people [00:23:00] that are trauma survivors are more prone to falling for this?

You know, these height marketing and I call it sociopathic sales to the manipulative belittling, shaming pushy sales types. Right. And I said, you know, do you feel like trauma survivors are more prone to falling for this? And she said, absolutely. And if you think about it, like so many people that are in the coaching world that are in, especially with people that are in it for the Right. reasons, we’ve had a journey where we’ve had to heal ourselves.

We’ve had to go on this growth journey And we’ve kind of taken everything that we’ve learned from other people. And I say we, because I, I do transformational stuff too. I’m just kind of, I kind of ended up as a business coach kind of accident, but most of us have gone through some kind of healing and growth journey and we take all the stuff that we’ve learned and we kind of develop our own system.

Right. And so a lot of the people that are coming into coaching are trauma [00:24:00] survivors. And so it makes sense that this really nasty marketing and sales is going to work on. Right. Cause there’s still parts of us that we’re working on healing and you know, like you said, you’ve got people that are jumping in and they’re coaching and consulting and they are, they don’t have their lives.

Perfect. It’s not about having your life. Perfect. Although a lot of people on social media try to make it look like they’ve got everything figured out. Like don’t go work with those folks. That’s a warning sign. Like nobody has it all figured out. But it’s just about being further down the road than the person that you’re helping.

You’re, you’re further, you’re a few steps ahead of them so that you can actually reach back and help them get a few steps further. And ideally you want to be working with people who have coaches themselves and are on still on a growth journey, right. Because the further they go, the further they can help you come as well.

De’Vannon: Right. And y’all when she mentioned the neuro linguistic programming, the NLP and things like that, which is a subset of hip hypnotherapy. What she’s talking about is [00:25:00] the subtle tones of voice inflections. Word choice. You can use different settings, music, colors, different Body language 

Body language and things like that, that you’re not, you know, in these things invoke a response.

So it’s a difference if I say, Hey, how are you as opposed to, Hey, how are you? You know, it, it sets a different, it sends out a different vibe to wherever it is, I’m directing it towards. And so if you know how to use the right words with the right, phrasiology and the right tones, the right totals and things like that, you can shift and change the energy within a conversation to your liking.

If you’re dealing with somebody who’s not aware of what the fuck you’re doing. And so but this is why those Jedi mind tricks only work on the weak mind that no, one’s going to be weak minded by the time they’re done with your book.

Heather: [00:26:00] Well, that’s, that’s the hope. And it’s interesting you say that about, you know, it only works on people that don’t know what you’re doing. So there was a great article on medium that a woman, she had been trained in NLP and she had, she was really blasting the people that had trained her because she had paid $13,000 to come to this three week long.

In-person. And they had hyped it up, though, this is all you need to start your business. You’re going to be a master trainer. By the time you leave, yada yada yada yada. And she said, the first week of the training was amazing and they taught them so much and they were all practicing together. And she said, the second week they started using the same techniques.

They had just taught them to try to push them into spending 7,000 more dollars to get the next level of training. And she said it was such a mind, fuck, because she’s like, you guys just taught us this bullshit. And now you’re trying to use it on us. But she said that out of the 30 people, 28 people signed up and she [00:27:00] said there were herself and one other holdout.

And she said they did this whole exercise, which was a visualization exercise. And it was all about like being. It was something about lifeboats. I can’t remember the specific name, but it was something about like being left behind, but it was all designed to just really undermine these last two people’s inner knowing and make them sign up for this thing.

And so it can work on people, even if they’re aware, unfortunately. Right. You just have to, you have to be aware and you have to stop yourself and be like, wait a minute. Why am I doing this? Because I really think it’s a good idea or because they’ve really put it in my head that if I don’t do this by businesses never going to go anywhere, or I’m never going to get the man I want, or I’m never going to lose the weight I want or whatever. 

De’Vannon: Well, I will say those 20, those 28 people who were able to suck her into paying the additional 7,000 Heather were, they were probably, they were [00:28:00] freshly taught about this, but more to the point they were still. In the control of the people who taught them, they were still in their arena on their playing field, you know, at their conference, you know, they, you know, they, they were still, they were still on their field.

They hadn’t had time. Then they had time to go home and let it process yet. And that’s why they didn’t let them get out and get away from them because their mind was still open and receptive and in a state of hypnosis processing the information. So they still struck out the struggle. The iron was hot.

Heather: Oh, absolutely. And that’s why you see so many, you know sign up in the next 24 hours or the price is going up or, you know, like there’s, there’s healthy urgency. And I talk about this in the book, like toxic FOMO, Right. So there’s, you know, a little bit of FOMO and marketing where it’s like, okay, the doors are closing soon.

I’ve only got three spots left. Right. And if the person is being [00:29:00] honest about that. Okay, fine. But when it goes into the toxic is like, we may never offer this program again. We’re never going to offer this program at this price again. And I’ve seen, like, I’ve seen people send the same email out saying that for years about things.

And so it’s like, if you’re interested in that program and you have the funds and it works for you right now, then go ahead and buy it. But don’t break yourself, you know, trying to buy this thing because you’re like, oh my God, they’re never going to offer it again because chances are it’s bullshit, you know, and never fall for someone.

Who’s like, I’m the only person who can help you. Like that person does not have your best interest at heart. It’s like run like help.

De’Vannon: Right. I’ve seen that recently where a person was like, you know, sign up. There’s only two slots left, blah, blah, blah. It feels pushy. I don’t like the energy. And so I want to offer this to people until you, you know, you can learn more about what Heather’s talking about. You can read her book and learn about NLP and different things like that.

[00:30:00] Sign up to take a class or two of hypnosis. I recommend the hypnosis motivation Institute, where I got my hypnotherapy training from you don’t have to get the whole certification. You can just take like a class or two specific to what you would like to learn about and be done with it. You can do it online, but you, you, my prayer is that you are at least able to feel when something’s not right.

And that you don’t ignore what that voice inside your head is telling you that disturbed feeling. Now you got to get quiet and listen to yourself. Don’t make a decision when you’re standing right in front of somebody always go home and think about it, period. 

Heather: yup. Yup. 

De’Vannon: Because you know, the, the spirit of that whole act now at quake, there’s only two left.

First of all, they’re lying. They have, they have as many slots as they can feel because they’re trying to make as much money as they possibly want to. So it’s bullshit and they’re not telling the truth. So

Heather: Sometimes sometimes, really like they are down to the wire and they really don’t, you know, [00:31:00] don’t, I wouldn’t automatically dismiss somebody for saying that there’s only a couple spots left. If they’re trying to rush you. Like, if the rest of their stuff, like, I would note that maybe as a yellow flag, but take it in context.

Does that make sense? 

De’Vannon: requires for research.

Heather: Right. Right. You know, because yeah. Some people use it as height and some people, some people are art legit. Like my program is almost full, but I’ve got a couple more spots. Right. It’s like the energy behind it, you know? But the people that are like act now act now out now a lot of that time, like you think about it.

I talk about this in the book. If you think about like any hustle movie in econ movie you’ve ever seen, they’re always rushing people because when we’re, when we’re being rushed, we’re off bound. You know, anybody that’s shaming you or belittling you, or trying to make you feel like you’re never going to get anywhere.

If you don’t take action by buying from them. And right then that’s a problem that person does not have your best interests at heart. [00:32:00]

De’Vannon: Indeed in. I wanted to talk about this. I want to caveat a little bit here and to the book writing world, because I kind of pivot back to the importance of remembering the soul behind what you’re doing. Now. I get some people more emotional and spiritually inclined than others, and it takes all sorts of people to make this world work.

So it comes to writing books, like in the, in the, in the literary world of ghost writer is kind of along the lines of like a literary consultant. If you will, or coach, this is somebody who possesses, but you know, as it is understood more skilled than the person who has the content for the book, the ghost writer can guide the person who has the content into creating a manuscript that is legible and marketable, et cetera.

Heather: Right. 

De’Vannon: So the experience that I had with, with the person who helped me write my first book[00:33:00] And it was a memoir and, you know, these things get personal, you know, when you,

Heather: And this is the one that you,

just put out, but I’ve been reading, right? Oh my God. Y’all it is so good. It’s so good.

De’Vannon: so thank you, baby. So it was your book. And so, but she, it gets personal and I would imagine the same way when you’re consulting and coaching, and you’re getting down into people’s details. At some point you cross the line of just strictly professional to quasi professional and quasi friends and quads. I personal because you’re not just seeing them once here and there, you know, you’re all up in this person’s tea, business, grits and everything.

And so I paid him like $40,000 to get two to two packages together because I had a lot of information. It wasn’t going to be a simple book and that price is in the middle. The highest I saw was like about 80, 90,000 for a ghost writer. And then as low as you want to go. And then it, since then, Because of what I was trying to [00:34:00] say, I w you know, I felt like it was in the middle and that’s all fine, you know, a flu this person down here to Louisiana.

So we can go to different cities and stuff like that. I really wanted an authentic read and, and, but, you know, I was new and I didn’t, you know, I’m wanting to get into like contract negotiations and stuff with this, because like, as it is now, and I just hadn’t had it to do over, I wouldn’t, I would’ve made sure that I had like unlimited revisions or something like that.

Heather: Sure. 

De’Vannon: So he only wanted to do like two or three revisions, but the book really wasn’t done. And it was, was so not ready to put out. And then he wanted to come back after I’ve already paid 40,000. I spent probably another 10,000 and all the traveling and eating out and everything. And now he wants to switch it to $200 an hour to do further work.

And so, you know, at that point I felt like. You know, the time that we had spent together and traveling and all of this and letting you know for what’s in my memoir, [00:35:00] there’s so much more that didn’t get told. So he knows like so much about me personally. And I just felt like, and then moment, he stepped back to being just like strictly business with me.

And, you know, that’s something that I should have known from the beginning. You know, if you’re gonna, if the, if the book is unacceptable after revisions two and three, you’re going to switch to 200 an hour. You should have told me that at first, you know, not on the back end when you feel like I need you in order to complete it.

So now I’m in a situation where I’m thinking, okay, that you intentionally kind of get a little sloppy towards the end of the book, knowing you wanted to turn around and charge me an additional 200, you know, I finished it myself. It’s not like I can’t write, I just wanted somebody else to have an objective, you know, look on it.

And I had already written 50,000 words of it before. You know, turn the project over to him. So I was just like, you know, fuck, y’all just do it. You know, myself, I’m not going to let you hustle me like that. And so, so with the current ghost writer that I have, who’s helping me on the don’t call me a Christian [00:36:00] book, which will be out later this year, different contract, far less expensive.

And if there’s anything additional needed, then it’s going to be on a per word basis. And I already know this upfront. 

Heather: right. 

De’Vannon: And so speak to me about contracts. When, when like a consultant now in the book, Heather breaks down the difference between a girl, a mentor, a consultant coach, all of that, you know, all of that.

But when it comes down to the contract, what should we look for? What do we need to have? What should we avoid?

Heather: Okay. So first off, I’m not a lawyer, so but here’s, here’s what you want. You definitely, if somebody doesn’t have a contract, that’s that scary, like they very least need to have something that makes it really clear, like what their duties are and what the expectations of what you’re going to do. Really nails down, like timelines really nails [00:37:00] down, like you know, how many sessions we’re going to have, how much time we’re going to spend together, you know, those kinds of things.

Right? So it’s always, it’s always good to have a lawyer look over things, you know, but especially in the beginning as coaches or if you’re just hiring somebody, not because you want to become a coach, you’re not working on anything for work or working on anything. A personal probably don’t want to go pay a little.

 To go over it, but there needs to be confidentiality clauses, you know, in there. You know, you need to know that this person, isn’t going to take your personal information and go ride a book of their own or, you know, just splash it all over social media or whatever. The biggest thing is like, and some of it you’re just going to have to live in, learn, like, you know, demanding and you went into this and you’re like, okay, 40 grand, this is middle, you know, middle of the road.

I’ve done my research. You know, this should be fine. But sometimes there’s things that we don’t know until we, until we know. Right. [00:38:00] So it’s good to have like really, really clear conversations and to ask questions about contracts. And if you’ve got somebody who is really being a pain in the ass about the contract, like they are like, if you’re trying to ask them questions and trying to clarify things and they really don’t want to answer, that’s not a good sign.

It’s probably not somebody you want to mess with. But you can just ask questions. know, what happens, you know, how many revisions do I get? Like in the case of, of the book, you know with, you know, with coaching, one of the things that I really encourage people to do, because the old, the old way that’s still being practiced by.

A lot of people is to say, you signed this contract. It doesn’t matter if, you know, three months it’s two months in or whatever you decide that this isn’t right for you. You’re stuck paying for this no matter what, that’s bullshit, you know that these non terminable con contracts are kind of. The coaching standard.

Right. And so I encourage people to [00:39:00] just ask people like, Hey, if we get three weeks in and I can see that this isn’t the right fit, because sometimes you can research and really do your due diligence and everything, but you don’t know what it’s going to be like until you’re in it. Right. Like you can’t, you can’t guess what it’s going to be like until you’re actually in it.

And you know, you find out, okay, this isn’t working for me, you know, have a conversation. Well, what happens if I need to break this contract, if they don’t have a termination clause in their contract, just because there’s no termination clause doesn’t mean that you can’t get out of it. Right. So there’s kind of a broad, general, anything the contracts like read it.

It’s legalized. It’s lot to slog through. It’s a pain in the ass, but read it and make sure you understand what’s going on and ask questions, you know? And then if it is something like a project-based thing, like what Davanon went through, make sure you understand, like, what happens if you know the finished product isn’t quite finished when you get done. You know, because it is, it is weird. Like you do develop a friendship with people, [00:40:00] you know, especially in longer-term projects. And I can’t imagine, you know, how close you would have gotten to somebody that you’ve been traveling with and all that stuff. And, you know, as, as a service provider, we have to be, we have to be conscious that this is what we do for a living.

Right. So we can’t let you know, just because we like somebody, we can’t like work for them for free. Right. But that’s why it’s so important. One of the reasons why it’s so important to be so clear in the contract about what you’re going to do and what you’re not going to do, you know, but it is, it’s weird every time, every time I’ve ever entered a coaching relationship or somebody has entered a coaching relationship with me, which has almost always been at the end of the agreed upon contract, it still feels like a breakup.

Like it feels, it feels kind of personal. You kind of have to kind of like mourn it. You know, I’ve been able to go back and be friends with most of my ex clients. And most of my ex coaches though But there haven’t been like, I understand van. And why that kind of left. It felt like a funny taste in your mouth. 

De’Vannon: [00:41:00] Oh, it’s a very bitter fucking tastes

Heather: he’s like not funny. It’s better. bitch.

De’Vannon: better. You know, if like I never want it. It’s like, I never want to see him again. It’s like, well, we got to talk about, you 

Heather: Right? 

De’Vannon: like that. So, and I want it to remind people. You know a saying that goes, the investor has the upper hand always meaning the one who’s spending the money who’s paying for the services.

So no matter how a salesperson tries to turn it around, how you have some sort of assistant or some sort of coach, who’s going to try to bully you and try to tell you what you should or shouldn’t be doing this year. The one with the checkbook, with the credit card, with the funds, with the Currans okay.

You call the shots. Even if you call them wrong at the end of the damn day, it’s your mind me, it can’t nobody make you do with your money, [00:42:00] which you don’t want to. And as simple as it seems, it wasn’t until I came across that in a, in a, in a, in a reading somewhere, I was reading in a writing on the internet that I found, you know, the investor has the upper hand always.

I felt so liberated. Because even though I’ve been the one spending money on stuff, sometimes I would feel like, okay, maybe I should act like they want me to act or do what they wanna do and stuff like that. And I was like, no, bitch, I’m slang in the Dole here. You shut the fuck up. If it comes down to it, bitch.

And you do what I say, you got me fucked up.

Heather: Well, you know, here, here’s where it’s kind of like, you have to find your own line because on the one hand we have to realize when we don’t know what we don’t know. Right. And sometimes we don’t know what we do. know, it’s like, you’re coming into a situation and you’re like, okay, I, want to do this. And like, there’s like, I may know that I need help with X, Y, and Z, but I don’t even know about, you know, ABC, D E F G [00:43:00] like I w I was so I’m, so I’m such a noob.

I’m so green. I don’t know anything about these other things. Right. And so having a beginner mindset is generally going to help you, like the worst thing for like a coach. Like the worst thing for me is like, I sit down and people are asking me questions and then I’m giving them answers. And I’m not one of these authoritative coaches where I’m like, I know everything and, you know, it’s my way or the highway.

Right. But there’s, there’s something. Okay. So I explained it. There’s tried and true things that work. And if you kind of imagine, like, if you’re going down the center line of a road, those are like the tried and true marketing things. Right. And you can deviate to the right and you can deviate to the left and still have a successful business.

Right. But if you deviate too far off, then you’re completely off the road and it either doesn’t work or it takes way too long. Right. So there’s a benefit in, in kind of, you know, not, not getting too crazy with [00:44:00] stuff. Right. But you know, if I have somebody who’s like, they’re asking me questions and then they’re telling me the answer and they won’t listen to what I have to say at all.

Like, that’s we call that not being coachable and that doesn’t work, but obviously if somebody’s giving you advice and you’re like, yeah, that doesn’t feel good to me. You know, that’s not how I wanna run my business, or that’s not how I want to, you know, date or that’s not how I want to lose weight, then that person’s, they’re not the right fit for you.

And then you should find a way to like dissolve contract.

De’Vannon: Right. I, I concur. And I want to go back and ask you something that I’m into earlier. Those, when the, when that girl was telling you, she was at the conference and they were able to trick the 28 people into the other seven grand, and then they wanted to guilt, shame or strong on the other two that they were, they able to manipulate the other two people or that they hold their dry.

Heather: So she held her ground. I don’t know what happened with the other person [00:45:00]

De’Vannon: Okay.

Heather: and, you know, yes. And I talk about this in the book, but we have to take responsibility. This isn’t the point of this book is not so everybody can sit around and say,

right. Because every single time that I bought into somebody’s height, there was a part of me that was like, this is too good to be true. This is too good to be true. It’s attributed review. But because there are still things in me that I’m healing, I’m still working on, you know, All of my tragedy resume.

I’m still working through a lot. I wanted to believe it. And I, and I let them manipulate me. And so I have to take responsibility for my badge choices. I have to take responsibility for the fact that even though the first three group programs didn’t work for me and it should have been very apparent to me that that model doesn’t work for me.

I signed up for two more. Right. So we have to take responsibility and hold ourselves accountable for our actions. Right. [00:46:00] And be aware that people are doing sleazy things, but you know, you can’t just sit around and cry about it and be a victim. Yeah. 

De’Vannon: Crummy around the area. Let’s see. So I just pray for people that they gain strong minds and become the strongest among us. 

Heather: Yeah. 

De’Vannon: So in your book, you talk about the difference of possible versus probable. You give these examples of how, like people on social media go, Hey, you can make $50,000 in your first month.

All you have to do is this, this, this, this, this, and or whatever fucking astronomical thing. And he’s not. And you say sometimes these results have happened. So you don’t really throw it all the way out, but you tell us is not necessarily typical. So speak to us about how we can balance our expectations about what’s possible when may have happened for some people, because apparently a lot of [00:47:00] consultants and girls like to use their best clients as their examples, but kind of leave out the fact that, you know, these results aren’t actually typical.

So what’s possible. What’s probable.

Heather: So it’s possible to come in and make 10 K your. it can happen. Right. But there’s a lot of fuckery that goes on with that testimonial and that, that case study. And they’re not telling you. Right. So for instance, one of the things that happens a lot in testimonials with these group programs is they’re telling you, you know, my client came in and just two weeks after starting to work with me, she doubled her ROI.

Well, they don’t tell you that this, this person they were working with already had a business was already making 5k months already had a warm audience. And this person didn’t take the group program. They actually were a one-to-one client. Right. So that person’s results. Are not even though it’s true, it doesn’t apply to you if you’re a new [00:48:00] entrepreneur and you’re taking this group program with a hundred other people.

Right. So that’s something that happens a lot. And once I understood that, I was like, oh my God, I’m not an idiot. There’s nothing wrong with me. Like these people are just not being transparent, so they’re not lying, but they’re not telling the truth either. Right. So, but I mean, even as a new entrepreneur and there’s, there’s a whole fuckery around what constitutes your first month in business, a lot of people don’t count themselves as being in business until they start making sales.

So they don’t tell you about the 14 years they struggled and didn’t make a dime. They’re just like, Yeah.

one day I started a business and 30 days later I made $35,000 and it’s like, yeah, you were in business for 14 years. You fucking wire. Right. Okay. So. They’re there and they’re outliers. There are people that just come in and suddenly have amazing results, like sometime, cause it really just happened, but don’t let people mindfuck you until you will.

If that doesn’t happen for you, it’s just your mindset. Like it’s just not probable. And so one of the things I encourage people to ask when they’re on, you [00:49:00] know, calls with coaches or, you know, any kind of mentor consultant, teacher, whatever is ask them what, you know, what are the best results you’ve helped people to create.

And you know, they’re going to brag, brag, brag, brag, brag. And then you’re going to say, well, what’s the average results and they’re not necessarily going to tell you the truth. This is where you have to really turn on your discernment. Look at their body language, listen to their voice about how they’re answering things.

And I also really encourage people to reach out to people that leave testimonials and just say, Hey, do you still stand by this testimonial? Okay. Sometimes people will rewrite your testimonials. Sometimes you gave it during the honeymoon phase when you really liked the person, but by the end of the program that you figured out that they were full of shit.

Right? So that’s kind of how you’re figuring out like what’s possible and what’s probable. And they also should be able to tell you, like, you know, the person who got the really amazing results, how much time and money did they put in, you know, the person they get the [00:50:00] average results, what kind of time and money did they put in?

Right? So you want to be asking these questions and you know, there’s so much fuckery amount, mindset and mindset is a real thing, but don’t get sucked into this. Well, if you just believe hard enough, it’s going to work. And it’s like, well, if the program does, if the program were coach or teacher consultant guru or whatever, does it deliver, you’re not going to get really good results.

And that’s not because of your mindset, right? If you’re showing up and doing the work, you should be getting results. If you’re not, then there’s something there’s something wrong and it’s not your mindset.

De’Vannon: Well, the devil is in the details as they say. And that’s exactly what you’re talking about is paying attention to the little things. So that makes all the difference in the world.

Heather: Yeah, but you know, somebody reads this book and you know, it’s going to open their eyes and you’re going to be able to see in people’s marketing, whether they’re worth following, whether they’re worth even getting [00:51:00] on a call with them. And you’re going to know when they, if, if they start trying to use any of the sociopathic sales techniques, you’re not going to sit there and start questioning yourself.

You’re going to be like, wait a fucking minute. No, no, no, no, no, no. Right. And then you’ll know like what questions you need to ask. Because the way that coaches are taught to sell is to not believe any room for questions. Right is to just take control of the call and just run it. And to some degree there, you know, you need to show leadership because you are in a leadership position, but it shouldn’t be like, the coach is on the mountain top and you’re like down here, it should be more like the coach is like a little bit further along than you, right there.

They’re a leader, but they’re not trying to like, make you feel like you’re, you know, so far, you know, it shouldn’t be, it shouldn’t be that much of a demand. And my words are failing me. Well they’re 


they’re not a God. [00:52:00] They’re just, there’s somebody who has a little more experience and knowledge than you do. 

De’Vannon: absolutely. They’re not a God and they’re not perfect. And we. Mistakes. It is important to take people off of these pedestals. We tend to put them on. And you mentioned that it’s important that your coach, if you’re going to hire a coach or a consultant or a girl that they are also have, they also have their own coaching happening as well.

And that’s very, very, very important. If another thing a person could ask them, you know, who is your consultant? Who is your person? You say in your book, that is good for people to invest in training for well-respected certifications. Usually behind a coach or consultant named there’s all these fucking acronyms that I don’t know what the fuck they mean, but it makes them look really smart.

Heather: Right. 

De’Vannon: In my head, it does make me feel like that they are probably better qualified than someone who doesn’t have all the acronyms behind their name. So speak to us about the importance of [00:53:00] training, because when I was reading this, you know, I’m getting the sense that you don’t want people to, just to forsake the training.

I think you said earlier, somebody, you disagree with that. All you have to do is be good at something. And then you can go start consulting. Apparently that’s not the case.

Heather: Well, so here, here’s the thing. A lot of people think that coaching is like giving advice and coaching in its purest form. Like when, when coaching first became a thing, it was almost like going to like the shaman of the village, or, you know, you see in like Hong Fu movies Where you go and you ask the spiritual master a question and he doesn’t give you an answer.

He gives you a question. Right? So pure coaching in its purest form is really about asking questions and helping the client figure out what they need to do. Right. But when coaching splintered into all these different niches, right. And it became business first, it was like [00:54:00] just coaching. And then there was like business coaching and life coaching, and then it’s wintered into like health and relationship and all these different things.

Right. So when somebody has a specialty. They’re not just poaching, they should be teaching. Right. And what I found in my business coaches and a lot of business coaches, they’re good coaches. They’re good at asking questions and they’re good consultants. I just like giving you strategies, but they’re not good teachers.

They don’t teach you how to actually effectively implement the strategies. And so that’s a problem anyway, but the coaching, like if you’re going to be a health coach, you need to, you need to understand, like, if you, if you have a nutrition degree from college, you might be able to be a health coach without actually having coach training.

Right. Because you have like that background, but somebody who just reads a couple of books on weight loss, and then it’s like, yep, I’m a health coach. Like, or [00:55:00] I’m a weight loss coach. Like. Things that you need to understand and a good coaching schools also going to talk to you about ethics, like your coaching ethics.

Like I talk a lot about ethics in business, on the sales and marketing side, but there’s ethics in like, you know, don’t fuck your clients. If you’re a coach, right. It’s a conflict of interest. Don’t, you know, coach close family and friends that can, that can be a difficult kind of sticky situation, other things.

So if you really are into this, because you actually want to have an impact, invest in some training and you can go on unity and Coursera and, you know, whatever and get a certification for a hundred bucks or 10 bucks. But the quality of that training, it’s it’s, you need to go to, you need to get some training where you can actually ask questions.

You can actually be mentored a little bit in the process. It’s just, it’s gonna make you much better at what you do. And you’ll have more confidence too, which will [00:56:00] make it easier for you to market and sell, but you’ll also be able to actually produce results with your clients much quicker.

De’Vannon: Where are there like general coaching schools throughout the country in the world? Or is there just different places depending on what you want to learn or does it, you know, is there anywhere you’d recommend or.

Heather: So there’s, I don’t know about recommends. So I did coach you, coach you is, has been around it’s one of the oldest coaching schools. And but there are specialty schools. That one, that one is basically for like life coaching and business coaching. But there’s, I went to a sex coaching school when I was doing sex coaching there’s all different kind of like splintered into all these niches kind of schools. Right. But if you want to get the ICF certification, which as far as I know is like kind of the one that’s most universally known and respected in the coaching world. Go to the international coaching Federation website. And it will tell you all the schools that are actually accredited with them. And then you can go and [00:57:00] research, you know, within your niche or, or what have you.

And, you know, they’ve got a lot of online options. I did mine on person, which I, I really liked some things about, and that I had, I was actually learning in an environment with other people, but it was 60 hours in six days. So it was pretty grueling. So, yeah, I would go to the ICF because here’s the thing we’re unregulated right now.

I don’t think we’re going to stay on regulated much longer, especially because there are more and more conversations being had about the unethical business practices in the coaching industry. So I think the government’s role governments are going to start to step in, and there are now schools that are offering four year degrees in coaching.

And on the one hand, I think that that’s pretty cool because there is a lot to learn and a lot of cool things you can know, but on the other hand, you don’t need four years of college and all that college debt in order to be an effective coach, you do need some training, but you want to make sure that your grandfather had in before that change happens, because [00:58:00] you know, people that have been calling themselves coaches for years are going to really have to scramble, you know, or face fines or, you know, what are, or face going back to school for four years.

De’Vannon: Right. So speaking of unscrupulous motherfuckers, you mentioned a sociopathic sales earlier, and now in this section of the book you back into the sense that this has to do with like an ends justifies the means sort of approach. I read a line there about maybe a salesperson might tell you something like, Hey, you wouldn’t, you know, you would spend money to keep your kid from dying.

It’s the same thing. And, you know, have you heard, have you heard people say shit like that and dig deep, dig deeper into what you mean by a sociopathic sales person?

Heather: So I’m not a psychologist. And so I’m just kind of using the, the term sociopathic to just mean like somebody does consciousness, right? They, they have, no, [00:59:00] they have no empathy. They have no remorse. They they have an agenda and they will, you know, their, their agenda is made to make a certain amount of money or fill their program with a certain amount of people.

And they don’t give a shit, they don’t kill her. They don’t give a shit if you’re, so this is kind of where you can kind of get into qualified and unqualified leads to somebody that’s a qualified lead. Is it the right starting place and has the right resources, like time and energy and focus to, and they’re the right level, right?

To get the good out of your program. If somebody is not at the right starting point, it doesn’t matter how eager they are. They’re not going to get as good a results. Right. Or somebody who like really is flat broke and like they’re struggling to eat. And these people would sell them a $5,000 program in a heartbeat.

They don’t give a shit. Right. So that’s what I mean by sociopathic sales. So it’s the manipulation, the false promises. It’s the shaming. And I go through all the different types of shaming, you know [01:00:00] ambition, shaming is one of the biggest ones like, oh, you, if you’re not ready to invest, you know, 10 grand in my program, you must not want this business very much.

Oh, oh, I see. You’re not ready. You don’t want to, you don’t want to buy my program right now. I see this must just be a hobby, right? So it’s this stuff to make you doubt yourself stuff to make you want to prove yourself to That person is one of the most common things, but that particular line the most sociopathic mentor I ever worked with actually use that a great deal on her sales calls, you know of, well, you know, you say you don’t have the money, but if your child was dying right now, you could come up with the money.

And this is the same. It’s like, no, it’s not, you know, but yeah. I mean, people will say all kinds of crazy stuff like that to like get under your skin and like you have to, and, and this particular person, like, if you didn’t tell her yes, on the phone, she would tell you, well, you can’t you’re, you’re disqualified from working with [01:01:00] me for the next six months.

And so she really, you know, had it and you should really get into people’s heads about how she was the only answer, that toxic FOMO thing and that she had all the answers. And if you didn’t work with her that, you know, your life is going to fall apart, your business is never going to work. And if you didn’t answer right then that you were barred from even getting on another call with her for six months, that she was the most toxic mentor I’ve ever worked with.

De’Vannon: That reminds me so much of the church, like, especially like the Pentecostals with the whole tithing thing. And they would, when I was growing up and know, they’d be like, yeah, if you don’t give us money, then something bad’s gonna happen to you. And if you give us money, then great things are going to happen.

And I’m all like, well, there’s plenty of people who don’t tie, who are like rich and stuff like that, so that it’s thrown out the window. And then there would be people who couldn’t afford like their light bills and shit. And they’d be like, don’t worry, God will take care of it. But then when he didn’t take care of it, they’re like, well, just keep waiting.

You know, it’ll happen [01:02:00] eventually. So there’s some sociopathic preachers.

Heather: Well, there’s, sociopath’s everywhere. There, there are. And, and they, you know, they gravitate toward positions of power and they’re very charismatic and they’re very competent. And. You know, there it’s, that ends justifies the means. Well, you know, we’ve got to, we’ve got to build this church, we’ve got to get more money so we can build this church so that we can do more of God’s work, you know?

And, and like, no, you’ve got to get more money in this church because you want to buy fancier shoes or you want to have a bigger house, you know? And then they twisted all around. We’ll see, this is my reward for being such a godly man, because I do God’s work that God has blessed me so much. And it’s like, no, because you’re taking people’s light bill money in the form of these fucking tides, you know?

And I believe that for people that are financially able, I think tithing is a beautiful thing, but it doesn’t have to be to a church. You know, it can be to a charity. You can tide your [01:03:00] time, you know? Yeah. There’s definite parallels with the, with the church and.

De’Vannon: Well, I’m just going to go ahead and release people. I try my best to, from the concept of tithing and the book of acts, and this is something that no preacher ever preached. I found this out, steadying, the Bible myself, which is what I always tell people to do. Study it yourself 

Heather: Yup. 

De’Vannon: in the book of acts, they had a whole falling out over what people who are not of the original bloodline of Abraham, which is the vast majority of all of us 

Heather: Right, 

De’Vannon: and the people who were the original bloodline, the Jews.

So a Gentile was anybody who did not come from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the middle east, that we are those people who can’t or an Israelite, you know, or the people who are, whose bloodline goes directly back to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob

Heather: Which would include Mudlick Muslims, 

De’Vannon: it’s, 

Heather: I’m sure they don’t talk about that. [01:04:00]

De’Vannon: the things going on, but they, when Jesus came and did his ministry. People who were not at the bloodline of Abraham, we’re not accepted by every Jew, even though Jesus was like, Hey, let’s all get along. And, you know, Peter had his vision before he went over to see Cornelius and the book of acts and the Lord told him no one’s uncleaned to me anymore.

That old Testament starts over Gentiles. A welcome, everyone can get filled with the holy ghost, all the welcome fling wide, the gates. Well, not everybody wanted to do that because people wanted to hold on to their superiority complex. You know, I get to be better than the Gentile, so I don’t want them to be equal because then I’ve got to relinquish control.

Now they had this whole meeting and it was a whole thing in the book of acts because a certain group of people didn’t want to let the Gentiles come in, which okay. So they were like, all right, they came out of the meeting. They were like, okay, if you’re not on the bloodline of Abraham, there’s only like three things we require.

And it was like not eating strangled meats and things sacrifice the [01:05:00] animals that had to do with like consumption and idol worship. 

Heather: Okay. 

De’Vannon: By then wasn’t in it. All of these other rules and shit, there’s nothing about being straight gay abortion. And none of that was none of that. Was it? None of that. It all had to do with whether or not you were going to just give God your true adoration or not.

Even the people of the bloodline of Abraham don’t have to stick with the old tithing and all the rules, unless they just choose to be fundamentalist. And that’s a choice of theirs, but Jesus released us from all that. Now Jesus told your ass to pay your taxes. You said to give unto Caesar what to do his, it was to do him, but when it came to money and the person who gave the least actually got his attention more than the people who gave the most.

So don’t let preachers pump your head up and act like you have to give a whole lot of money to get God’s attention, because we have biblical precedent against that. But tithing is optional. If you choose a follow that stature. Great. I mean, that, that example wonderful, but you do not have to. And the curse is in the book of Malakai and not apply to you because if [01:06:00] Jesus came and undid all of that, and then you’re not a Jew anyway, 

Heather: Yeah, 

De’Vannon: so it’s not.

Heather: that’s what broke my head. Like once I understood, you know, that the old Testament is Judaism and that I was like, why does so many Christian churches continue to preach the old Testament more than they teach the new Testament? And then I was like, oh, because the old Testament gives the church all the power.

So they don’t want to preach too much out of the new Testament because Jesus was like, Jesus was like, you know, all about a personal relationship with, with God and, you know, yes. Be around other Christians and, and you know, well, not that word, but other followers are prized, you know, but he, but he wasn’t he wasn’t all about the church.

And so of course they are entities of power. I know there’s a new Netflix, a documentary about hillside church. [01:07:00] Have you seen. 

De’Vannon: You must mean Hillsong? No, I haven’t.

Heather: Hillsong. Yes. Yeah. So there’s a documentary about all the scandals around Hillsong. I haven’t.

watched it yet, but you know, it’s it’s, it’s insidious some of the stuff that’s being done in, in God’s name and it’s really about filling these people’s pockets and, you know, giving them you know, the power to pray sexually on their followers.

And it’s just, yeah. Bad. Sad. 

De’Vannon: Hmm. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I had to go look that shit up real quick. Do you know I’m all about throwing shade and megachurches after I got kicked out of Lakewood for not being straight and you know, Lakewood church in Houston, Texas, and Hillsong church in Australia. Who’s whose pastor’s name is Joel Houston.

Odd, ironically enough. And you have Joel Olsteen who leads the church in Houston, Texas, and 

Heather: Oh, wow. 

De’Vannon: And a [01:08:00] guy named Joel Houston, who’s in charge over there in Australia Hillsong, but both of them are like great friends. They would send worship leaders back and forth to do worship at each other’s church.

And they both have very stringent anti LGBTQ policies, you know, and things like that. And then they both had their fair share of scandals too. So, you know, just fuck them.

Heather: Well, it’s the people, it’s the people that are preaching the loudest about morality are the ones that have the most skeletons in their closet. I think we can, like, if you look at like any of these, the scandals that have come out about, you know, these TV, televangelists and stuff, or, or even like the politicians that preach that scream the most about they’re so conservative, It’s like, they’re the ones that are doing the dirt almost embarrassed.

De’Vannon: It’s projection. So let’s just point all the attention over there to those people so that we can do our dirt over here. Like I said earlier, let’s stop that a woman from [01:09:00] getting an abortion of those two men from getting married, but we can cheat on our wives and have cocaine or do that’s cool.

Heather: Right. Yeah. Those gay people getting married. That’s what’s destroying our marriage. Not the, not the orgies, not the, not the cheating, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, there’s just, I’ve been writing this book really put me in a very cynical place and I’m, I’m like, I’m being quiet right now because I’m going through a lot of personal stuff with the death of my father and settling the estate and everything.

But also just like the coaching world is just gross to me right now. And it’s not everybody it’s really, really not everybody. And I stress that so many times in the book. I’m like, I know I’m telling you some really like nasty things. Don’t think that it’s everybody because. Coaching and personal growth really changed my life.

Like I therapy kept me from killing myself, but I still wanted to, I just was kind of able to trudge [01:10:00] along personal growth, made it so that I don’t want to die anymore. You know? And that’s huge. That’s so powerful. Right. So it’s really about me wanting people to understand that there’s a lot of people doing a lot of good work and I’m sure there’s, I’m Sure.

that there are genuinely good churches out there that are doing amazing things, right.

 It’s not everybody, But you have to be aware that not everybody’s on the level, not everybody’s being transparent about what’s really going on. And it kind of comes back to what you were saying, the van and about really being in touch with ourselves and trusting our inner knowing and the fucked up thing is that sometimes you need personal growth to even get you to a place where you can do that.

So it’s kind of a catch 22. It’s like well, I got to go choose a couple. But I, and I got a tuned into my inner knowing, but I can’t do that because I’ve read all this fucked up shit, which the whole reason they need to go G yeah.

De’Vannon: But like I say and very well said, Heather, [01:11:00] my dear, you know, you use churches until you don’t need them anymore. You know, there are some churches out there doing good. They’re harder and harder to find churches open and close every year. You know, it’s a racket. But church, 

Heather: can be a sadly 

De’Vannon: but church is not supposed to be permanent there.

You like you graduate eventually from college, high school, everything you’re going to church to learn. That’s the only institution where they seem to think you should be a continual student forever.

Heather: well that and 12 step for life. 

De’Vannon: Yeah, that in 12 step, the anonymous movements, they fuck all that. Everything you must graduate from, you cannot stay there forever because at that point it’s about the organization is more about the organization. It is about you. They should be training you to be able to study the Bible for yourself eventually and not need a preacher.

And they should be training people who are dealing with recovery and addiction to not always sit there and keep calling themselves a fucking addict every damn time to open their mouth.

Heather: I agree with that. Like, [01:12:00] that was one of the things I, I went off in a meeting one night as a matter of fact, because there’s this whole thing about humility And like true humility is knowing where you’re awesome. And knowing where you suck, it’s not about talking about how much you suck all the time.

Right. And when people first come into recovery, they need a healthy dose of like real humility. But one of the things, one of the reasons why I think 12 set breaks down after a few years for a lot of people is because they, they strip you of that false ego that you have which needs to happen, but they don’t, then they don’t do anything to build you up to having a healthy ego.

Right. And that’s when. You know, liking, kick you in the nuts and you start kind of going downhill, you start feeling bad about yourself and you have nothing to genuinely feel good about yourself about, and that’s, I think a lot of people relapse and start fucking up their lives again. I mean, I, I have a little bit of a different view.

Like I wish 12 step had continued to work for me. I [01:13:00] wish that I had still felt like there was a place in a community that I felt supported because a lot of, I got a lot of grew from it for a long time and the same with churches, you know, I think that it would be lovely. Like I am I in the, my aunt who has faith and she has this church that it’s a mega church.

I think it’s very cultish. But I envy her that she has this community and this place to be all this time that gives her so much joy, you know, So I think that done with different intentions done, you know, with a purity of intentions, it would be a beautiful thing for me to be able to be a part of a community for life like that.

 But it’s where they start scaring you and telling you, you can’t go anywhere else or you, if you stop coming, you’re going to hell. If you stop tithing and you’re going to hell, you know, that’s, that’s where I have the problem with it.

De’Vannon: And you have every fucking right to shit. 

Heather: Yeah. 

De’Vannon: She at.

Heather: She, the fuckers just don’t know 

De’Vannon: Oh, [01:14:00] so, so y’all in Heather’s book. She talks to us, there’s a poor portion called shame games. We’re not going to get into detail with that. Cause I want to move over to some of the myths before we close this out, but I’ll just give you a little titty teaser. So her shame games you get into, she gets into detail about nothing like a nip slip bitch.

I’m never accidental on my end. Every last one of them is intentional because sharing is caring. That’s what they told me in Sunday, school hallelu ambition, shaming, confident, shaming, trust, shaming, boundary, shaming, mindset, shaming, all the shame games that salespeople, consultants, coaches, some girls, mentors, teachers, preachers, you know, can throw at you and everything like that.

See this book transcends the coaching world. I think that this applies to anybody. Who was in any kind of leadership position, wherever they are. This is not just a coaching book because it’s not just,

Heather: I expect a review on [01:15:00] Amazon that says that, 

De’Vannon: yeah. They let me go back and edit my review already reviewed it.

Heather: oh yeah, the sweet, oh gosh. I didn’t even know. 

De’Vannon: It was, you know, it was just like done today, so they need time to process it. So she has almost 20 minutes in there that helped the demystifying breakdown, some unrealistic expectations. We kind of touched on the overnight success with the whole people thing. She’s Amy whammy. You’ll be Richard like tomorrow.

Just do what I did, what I wanted to dwell on just for a second though. The 10 hour or less work week. So. A lot of coaches and people like that tend to prompt this whole, Hey, you can work yourself out of working, work yourself out of a job. You’ll only have to put in minimal hours each week and you can be filthy rich and sell the world and play with your twat and just Jack off all day.

And the money will keep flooding in. Okay. So what [01:16:00] I will, I want to know about this is why did we think we glamorize not working is like, it’s like when people retire and they say retirements like kills people because they’re sitting around doing nothing. If, if you, if this was someone’s reality, and I’m gonna tell you, when you own your own business, bitch, you’re gonna work more than 10 hours.

It takes a while for you to work up to a point where you can just take off when you want, but you’re going to have the freedom to come and go as you please, which for me was worth it because bosses will be being stupid. But why is it that we, why do, why do we as a society associate. This is a glamorous lifestyle.

Does having bitches doing shit for us while we can just sit around and most people even know what they would do with the free time they had. It is almost like it’s a pipe dream or something that’s been made to be more glamorous than it looks.

Heather: Yeah. So it’s interesting. So I’m going to start a [01:17:00] podcast actually in the next couple of months and my focus. Yes. And you’re definitely coming down, bitch. You know, you are, you know, you are. So the focus is going to be talking about. Freedom and what freedom means and what freedom means in different areas of life.

And I’m going to have experts come on that are, you know, financial freedom, sexual freedom you know offered living is going to be a big thing. Cause I think that is a super form of freedom, you know? So, but I’m also going to talk about how it’s important to know like what freedoms are important to you.

Because I think that when we start going after freedom in every area, just like, if we start going, if we try to be successful in every single area of life, it actually, it’s a different sort of prison. It’s like a different, it’s like an Oubliette inside the matrix, right. You’re chasing after freedom and you’re chasing after it so much that you’ve got yourself found in another trap.

Right. Sneaky. Right. So I think that a [01:18:00] lot of people, like you said, they don’t even know what they would do if they only worked 10 hours a week, but it’s been glamorized. You know of this, you know, this, this rich jet set lifestyle where you, you know, work very little and people just catered to you and whatever.

And I think people just they’re kind of hypnotized by it and they really haven’t thought it through. But the truth is like, if you have, if you are starting a business, right, and you have a good mentor or consultant or coach, they can help you streamline your daily activities. So you don’t want to be part of team hustle, hustle till you drop to team, no sleep.

And I talk about that myth in the back of the book as well. Because that’s ridiculous, right? You’ll just burn yourself out. But if you’re going to have a successful business, you, you know, and, and you’re doing it online, right. Have to do it as a coach. You’re going to have to put in a minimum of like an hour to two hours a day.

In the beginning [01:19:00] just to get, you’re just doing marketing, right. Just doing marketing. And then you’ll, you’ll have to spend a little more time each week when you start getting people interested and you get them on sales call, and then it’s going to take up more of your time every week when you start actually coaching people.

And then you can outsource things, you know, but the people that are working 10 hours a week and still making $20,000 a months or whatever, they’re not really making $20,000 because they’re paying $5,000 to, you know, a sales team or they’re paying, you know, $3,000 to a virtual assistant. Right. So it’s possible to get to work, you know, 10, 20 hours a week and make ridiculous money, but it’s not going to happen in the beginning.

You know, that happens later. You know? So the people that are touting that they’re selling you, they’re selling you a pipe dream, you know, just be very, very wary of that. And anybody that’s talking to, you know, It’s good to read this whole book as a whole. And then when you’re watching people, like nobody’s perfect there going to be things that you’re like, okay, that’s kind of a yellow flag, [01:20:00]but like we were talking about earlier, you want to take it in context.

It’s like, how does this fit with the overall theme, right? Are there a bunch of yellow flags plus a few red ones? And you probably want to walk away if there’s a couple of yellow flags and you ask questions about it and the question and the answers they give you makes sense, then, you know, maybe move forward with that person or do a little more research, you know, but anybody who’s telling you as a new entrepreneur, that you’re going to work 10 hours a week and you’re going to make just ridiculous money.

They are allying their asses off run like, hell 

De’Vannon: Fair enough. And then, you know, if, if somebody does really still want that sort of life, then the advice Heather gives in the book is to do it little by little. So you’ll hire like virtual assistants or something like that, you know? And you’ll trust people with little piece at a time, you know, and then eventually, you know, then you can have this glamorous life where you just don’t do anything.

If that’s what you really insist upon, having you do it little by little, don’t go and outsource your whole operation overnight [01:21:00] to some people you don’t even fucking know. Do that shit little by little over time.

Heather: Yes. And that is part of it is like, you know, building up the trust and it’s like, okay, let me give you a little bit of responsibility. How do you handle it? Okay. You did that. All right. Let me give you a little bit more. But the other part of it is that, you know, a lot of people, when I talk about this, like people try to take a shortcut and they’re like, they come in and they’re like, okay, I’m going to hire a business coach.

I’m going to pay somebody $5,000 to put up a band website. I’m going to. You know, get professional graphics made, I’m going to do all this stuff and because their messaging isn’t right, because they really haven’t gotten their target market. Right. They don’t know how to talk to people. They don’t know their core message.

So even if they hand it off to copywriters, it still doesn’t do anything. And it’s like, they’re trying to fake it until they make it. And it ends up blowing up in their face. They’re like, I, I coached somebody that had been, you know, cranking out a podcast for over a year and had all these, like, she looked like she was making 20 K months [01:22:00] easily and she wasn’t selling anything.

Right. So like trying to take that shortcut, you know, it’s, it generally doesn’t work. 

De’Vannon: and pressure. That’s what somebody who has been a successful business person told me years ago when I was just getting into it. He said, it’s going to take time and pressure. Many of you already touched on myth number 15 would ha, which has to do with the relentless to charge people and not feeling like you can charge enough and all of that.

 So then the last thing, and that was myth number 13, that we just talked about the whole 10 hour work week. The last thing I want to talk about is myth number 16, which says coaches, aren’t responsible for their client’s success. So these coaches, consultants, girls, teachers, how much responsibility. And you did mention about whether or not someone is coachable before, but what’s the balance here.

So if I’m going to hire you and pay you money, how much of it’s [01:23:00] on you? How much of it is on.

Heather: So, and I talk about how this is tricky, right. But a lot of people really just shrugged their shoulders and they’re like, well, you know, I mean, I’ve had 4% of people get great results with me. And the rest of the people just don’t believe in themselves enough. The rest of the people, they just, their mindset is bad.

They weren’t all in. And I, I call bullshit. Right? So to me, that’s like the college professor, like there’s Hottie college professors and probably, you know, other types of teachers as well, who say, well, you know, 70% of my class is failing is because they’re all fucking idiots. No. If 70% of the class is failing the fucking teachers, the fucking problem.

Right. So I feel like it’s the same thing with coaching, right? So let’s say, you know, you come to me and you wanted me to coach you on business. Right. And. You show up and, you know, you take notes during the sessions. You take action in between the sessions.[01:24:00] You let me know what’s working. What’s not, we were communicating real really Well with me.

And you’re still not getting any results. Right. There’s, there’s a, there’s a misalignment issue. Right? Well, it’s complicated with business too, because you’re guessing you’re making a lot of hypotheses. You’re like, okay, I’m going to try this and I’m going to see what results I get. Okay. That, that produced this result.

Do I want to tweak it? Right. So there is some of like figuring it out, you know, together, but what I’m railing against is the coaches that just throw up their hands. Yeah. They don’t care that most people aren’t getting good results. You know, they’re not, we’re not having enough conversations about how to be better coaches, how to design better programs so that people get better results, how to filter people and not allow people that aren’t qualified prospects into our programs, right.

How to manage people’s expectations. Right. So if you’re using hype-y marketing [01:25:00] and you’re making people believe that they’re instantly going to make 50 K months, or they’re going to find their love and their life in six weeks, or they’re going to lose 20 pounds or lose, you know, 50 pounds in three months, like people, most people are not going to get those results.

Right. And so managing people’s expectations, helping them set like probable goals, you know, at the beginning. Right. So that they’re more likely to have success. It’s it’s an interplay between both. Right. And that’s why we, as consumers have to take responsibility and really do our due diligence. You know, don’t go to somebody’s challenge or webinar and sign up at the end of it, just because they’re like, the cart is closing in two seconds, jumping in.

If you really want to have the life of your dreams, like we have to take responsibility for that. And we have to show up and we have to do the work and we have to communicate about what’s working. What’s not working. But the coach also should be giving it their [01:26:00] best, you know, and really figuring out, okay, how can I help this person get better results?

Or I had one client that I could see. She had worked with me one package and we had done some stuff. She hadn’t taken a whole lot of action, but she was starting to take more action. So she signed up for a second package and in that package, she really wasn’t taking a lot of action and she wanted to sign up for a third one and I was like, You know, I’m sorry.

Like, I I’m like, I, I’m not this isn’t working for you, so I’m not going to take your money, you know? And I just don’t see a lot of coaches having that kind of integrity. It’s like, okay, you want to sign up and show up every week and talk and bitch and not do anything and not getting any results. Okay.

Well, that’s not my problem. That’s gross to me, know?

De’Vannon: Well that’s because you have a heart.

Heather: Well, it’s just, it’s like, [01:27:00] I want to make great money, you know, great money is great. But if I’m working with somebody that is not doing the work and, and they’re not getting results that just hurts my soul, you know, I’m just like, mm, that doesn’t feel good. You know? So. I just feel like the coaching industry, and this is one of the things like, this is why the government is going to step in and we’re going to start being regulated because there are so many people that have been taken advantage of.

And I mean, there’s coaches that show up week after week and, and, you know, coach you, and it’s just not any good. Right. But at least they showed up. There’s some people that straight up just take your money and never show up for a call. You know, the woman that I got my microblading removed a few weeks ago and I was talking to this woman and she’s got a brick and mortar business, but she had fallen for some hype this person who was like, oh, you know, I’m going to show you how to leverage social media for your brick and mortar business.

And she signed up for the subscription. Well, the guy never showed up for zoom calls. He never delivered on any of the [01:28:00] templates and stuff. He was supposed to be putting in the members vault or whatever. And then she couldn’t get in touch with them to actually cancel the membership. So she paid for it for like six months before she was finally able to get it shut down, you know?

So, I mean, there’s different levels of scammers, you know, It was just so much bullshit. And I just, I want, I love this industry. I love what we’re capable of. And I want to haul the people who are in it for the right reasons, my colleagues, and I want the rest of these people to get the fuck out of Dodge, but whatever they’re going to do, whatever they’re going to do, I can’t control them, but I want people to be educated.

I want them to have a fighting chance, you know to recognize what’s going on around them so that they can make better choices and actually get progress instead of just a bunch of debt.

De’Vannon: Well, I’m glad for that. Very reason that you’ve written your book because even once regulation happens, you know how our government works. It’s not like they’re going to initiate the regulation today. And then tomorrow was going to be in force. You may have states and [01:29:00]cities that may want to do a little something different.

I may look the other way. So you’re still going to need all of this advice for the long run.

Heather: Oh, yeah. Well, and regulation is, I’m not in favor of regulation. I don’t think it’s necessarily going to help anything. It’s going to make things more complicated. But you’re right. Like, it’s, it’s like, you know regulating drugs and regulating prostitution. It’s like, there’s still going to be problems, you know, just decriminalize shit.

And that’s my opinion. And with the coaching thing, like, just because somebody certified, they can have a list of stuff behind your name. There’s a lot of therapists that have passed state boards that suck, you know, just because somebody has had training, just because they’ve jumped through all the hoops and everything doesn’t mean they’re good at what they do, unfortunately, you know?

 But I do think that if somebody has. If they really want to be a good healer or a good coach, or, you know, whatever it is that they’re doing. I think that [01:30:00] they, they would care enough about it to either go through like a paid training or find somebody to mentor them or something. You know, I think it’s a red flag.

If somebody is like, no, just one day I woke up and I decided that I was fabulous and I was going to charge people to talk to me like, okay, 

De’Vannon: Yes, I would seem sometimes. 

Heather: it is, 

De’Vannon: So with that and how the will, we’ll let you close us out. Give us your last word. I’ve enjoyed our informative and occasionally shady conversation today, you know, but it was real.

Heather: I like how we go from like drugs and sex to like business and coaching to churches and religion and, you know, a Bible lesson. Back to coaching to, yeah. Yeah, so my, my, my biggest thing is like coaching, personal, personal, spiritual business growth stuff is [01:31:00] real.

You just have to not fall for the bullshit. Right. And get the book it’s very, very reasonably priced right now. The ebook edition is like 2 99. And I made it there’s a PG 13, which I don’t imagine any of your people will need, but if you know somebody who is an online entrepreneur or entrepreneur who is, you know, marketing on social media or anything there is in there, they’re afraid of cussing.

 There is a PG 13 version just so they can get the information. And it’s on Amazon it’s I wrote it, I’ve made it a big format so that there’s plenty of room for you to like take notes. And underlined you know, get this book we’re spending 2 99 on the ebook or 8 99 on the heart, or the paperback is going to save you thousands, if not tens of thousands of dollars.

So it’s it’s good.

De’Vannon: I concur. And now her website is Heather weil.com [01:32:00] and all of that information will be there. The book is online entrepreneurs, survival guide, how to choose the right business coach. All of this will go in the showy notes as I always have everything laid out in there along with Heather social media. So you can reach out to her.

If you have any more questions or you might be interested in some coaching thank you so much for coming back to the sex, drugs and Jesus podcast today, Heather, you have a great fucking week. 

Heather: you too.

De’Vannon: Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at sex, drugs, and jesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.

My name is [01:33:00] De’Vannon and it’s been wonderful being your host today and just remember that everything is going to be all right.



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