Episode #16: STOP CLOBBERING LGBTQIA+ PEOPLE WITH THE BIBLE!!! with Rev. Dr. Marcia Ledford, Esq.


This is the third and final installment in our three part series which has been focusing on the clobber passages from the bible and the general disgusting anti-alphabet community rhetoric that conservatives like to spew forth out of their cockholsters. It’s hard when we get rejected for being who are but the Lord says that even if your very father and mother forsake you then the Lord will take you up. Be encouraged my people and let’s stop hurting ourselves, especially over what other people have to say. If you have a moment please visit Marcia’s blogs and leave comments at PolitialTheologyMatters.com. Let’s go!


INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to):

·       Discussion Of The “Clobber” Passages Used To Bash The LGBTQIA+ Community

·       The HYPOCRISY Of Conservative “Christians”

·       Focus On Sodom And Gomorrah

·       Suicide Related To Church Abuse

·       Diminished Self-Esteem Due To Church Fuckery

·       The Foolishness Of Conversion Therapy (Watch Pray Away On Netflix)

·       How rape ties in to all of this.

·       Not Letting People Come In Between Us And Our Creator

·       How Churches And Pastors Abuse Power

·       Why I Extend My Middle Finger To Conservative Judgmental Motherfuckers!!!

·       Safe Denominations For LGBTQIA+ Peeps


·       https://www.politicaltheologymatters.com/stop-clobbering-lgbtqia-people-with-the-bible/


Website: https://www.politicaltheologymatters.com

FaceBook: https://www.facebook.com/politicaltheologymatters

LinkedIn: https://linkedin/marcialedford

Twitter: https://twitter.com/docledford

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/docledford/



·       How To Think Theologically: https://amzn.to/3hkvdfN



·       Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)


TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs



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[00:00:00] You’re listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right. At the end of the day, my name is De’Vannon and I’ll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world. As we dig into topics that are too risky for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what’s really going on in your.

[00:00:24] There was nothing on the table and we’ve got a lot to talk about. So let’s dive right into this episode.


[00:00:34] De’Vannon: This is the third and final installment in our three part series, which has been focusing on the clobber passages from the Bible and the general disgusting anti alphabet community rhetoric that conservatives like to spew forth out of their cock holsters. It’s hard when we get rejected for being who we are.

[00:00:52] But the Lord says that even if your father and your mother forsake you, then the Lord himself will take you up. [00:01:00] So be encouraged my people and let’s stop hurting ourselves, especially over what other people have to say. If y’all have a moment, please visit Marcia’s blogs and leave comments at www.politicaltheologymatters.com

[00:01:10] Let’s go! All right, Dr. Marsha, welcome back to this show for the third time. There’s nothing like a good three way baby. And so,

[00:01:35] and so y’all today, we are going to be continuing our series dealing with homosexuality and the Bible, and, um, we’re happy to have the good Reverend that bag with us today. She’s written a phenomenal blog on her website. Political theology matters that org. And so today we’re going to be [00:02:00] focusing on Sodom in the Maura primarily, but we’re still going to talk about a couple other things.

[00:02:06] So, uh, Marsha, go ahead on and tell us a little bit about your history and your fabulous website, and then we’ll get right into it.

[00:02:15] Marcia: Well, I sensed to called ordination as a teenager, as a kid. And first I wasn’t seeing women at the alter or the pulpit. Uh, so I decided to go into law because I thought that would be a way to be a part of a helping profession.

[00:02:34] And I became a civil rights attorney and worked primarily within the LGBTQ community. Uh, back in the day when aids was rearing its ugly head for the first time. And, uh, I represented, uh, lesbian and gay parents who were, uh, in, at risk of losing custody of their children because they were considered to be [00:03:00] morally unfit.

[00:03:01] Uh, just because of their sexual orientation. Uh, but over time I became increasingly discouraged or maybe, uh, disappointed because you can’t really argue that gospel in court and expect to be successful. Uh, so I finally relented to that call of the holy spirit to become, um, an ordained priest in the Episcopal church.

[00:03:29] And that’s what I’ve been doing since. Um, and I, my first, um, full ministry was in the Latino communities of Southwest Detroit, and I became appalled at what I saw as a civil rights attorney. Um, in terms of what we’re doing to families by splitting them up with our, uh, our archaic immigration laws. And so I decided to study political theology because it’s a beautiful convergence [00:04:00] of my love of the gospel and my love of our constitution.

[00:04:04] So I started political theology matters and I write, speak, teach, preach, and help the faithful get equipped for, uh, being faith-based advocates in the public square for greater social justice.

[00:04:21] De’Vannon: Well, we can just about close on that note.

[00:04:28] Well, put, well put, okay. So like I said earlier, we’ve done two episodes already covering some of the main, uh, passages that people use to try to be anti LGBT Q. Um, today we’re doing another one and we’re going to cover a few more. And then later on, uh, March is going to be releasing yet another blog that takes it even further.

[00:04:53] So we’ll be sure to tune into her website for that. Um, so [00:05:00] let’s see. So one, one thing from this blog and this particular blog that we’re focusing on is called stop clobbering, the LGBTQ people exclamation mark in. So, um, in there you mentioned that people use biblical texts to tell us that we are broken, that we’re less than, that were perverted, that were degenerate, that were abominations, et cetera.

[00:05:24] I want you to speak to that. Uh, tell us why you wrote that while you feel that way and how it applies to all seven, because there are seven clobber passages that are primarily used and tell us how this all ties into all of them.

[00:05:38] Marcia: Well, sure. Um, The seven passages that are used, uh, co have caused considerable damage.

[00:05:47] And they have caused people to take their lives. When people use these passages to clubber or be LGBT people over the head with them, [00:06:00] the spiritual fracture, that many experience can be enough for them to just give up and take their lives. And we have got to stop that for the people who use these passages for the purpose of clobbering us over the head.

[00:06:21] Uh, they need to stop it. And so I decided for pride month this year that I was going to do three blogs or four blogs about the seven passages and I grouped them together. Um, I did the two Leviticus passages together. We covered that last week. I did the three vice lists that occur in the epistles of the new Testament.

[00:06:51] Um, two are attributed to Paul and one is a pseudo Paul or his school. And we covered those in our first [00:07:00] episode. And today we’re going to cover, uh, the one that I think has been the most misused, which is the story of Saturday. And I compare it with another, uh, situation to underscore what ancient hospitality was supposed to be like in judges 19.

[00:07:20] So we’re going to talk about that one today. And then I have one last blog to go up that covers the seventh collaborative passage, which is about Noah and his sons. And we’ll get into that towards the end of the show. But, um, I’ll tell you a little story too. When I was in seminary, um, there’s a, uh, uh, LGBTQ drop-in center in Detroit and I periodically would go over there, um, and just be a spiritual presence with the kids, because a lot of them had been put out of the house at the behest of their pastors [00:08:00] because they’d come out.

[00:08:05] So I was walking up this very steep staircase. And at the top of the staircase at the drop-in center was a big whiteboard that said, how are you feeling today? And in big block letters centered both ways. The word that appeared was abomination.

[00:08:30] That’s what beating people over the head with a Bible does to them, to their self-esteem, to their sense of self-worth all of this things. And I thought to myself, this is the same shit different decade. This is how I felt 30 years ago. And we have got to stop it. So, and this is a little side story, but, uh, I created a page called the [00:09:00] Lazarus lives project, which is on Facebook and it’s open and you can go join there.

[00:09:05] And I post positive stuff for our communities, uh, about being faithful members of Christ’s holy vineyard, as LGBTQ plus people. And yes, it’s possible and you don’t have to choose between them. Um, and it’s called the Lazarus lifts project because the closet is like a two and Jesus called Lazarus out of the grave.

[00:09:35] Uh, and I believe that Jesus calls us out of the closet and out of hiding and being ashamed. So there you go. Now let, so we’re going to turn to the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. If you’re ready there to Vanna ’cause I go with you? We have,

[00:09:59] De’Vannon: we, [00:10:00] we will get, uh, to the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, but I wanted to touch on something about conversion therapy because, um, uh, it just came out on Netflix and I feel like that this ties in to what we’re talking about.

[00:10:21] Uh, it’s called pray away. I haven’t seen

[00:10:24] Marcia: it yet, but I’m going to watch it.

[00:10:26] De’Vannon: It just came out on Netflix. I watched it last night and, um, and, uh,

[00:10:34] Because in the blog you write, many of us have suffered damage and even PTSD from conversion therapy to turn a straight and sell. And so I felt like that, that this documentary that, that just dropped with the work that you’ve just done, you know, or so, you know, on brand. And so in tandem with one another now, um, in, in, in the documentary, you know, one of the main people [00:11:00] who used to run exit is, and exit is, was like the main, I don’t know if they are, you know, conversion therapy, shit show, clown show, um, you know, in the country.

[00:11:10] And now you got these people who used to lead it, who were on the documentary are still quite gay. And they’re like

[00:11:20] all the damage. They didn’t die. At least they’re doing, you know, doing this documentary. But, you know, for years they went around telling everybody. You know, God healed me. He took the gay away and something’s wrong with you. You’re still gay and other going in, nevermind. We were wrong and we’re still gay.

[00:11:39] And, and, and, uh, but one of them said that it got to a point because he was married. He had had two sons, but he was like watching gay porn and his wife would catch catches, catch him with his gay porn, uh, and everything. And he was like, it got to a point that he was either [00:12:00] going to have to, you know, leave her and leave the lie he was living or kill himself.

[00:12:05] It was, those were his two choices he had come up. And so it made me think about when I got kicked out of Lakewood church and they were trying to do conversion therapy with me in the form of here, read these books and. You know, you know, and go be an usher cause you can’t be in the choir around children anymore, you know, you know, until you become on gay.

[00:12:29] And one way in the documentary that they were talking about, they would do conversion therapy would be like readings and counseling sessions and things like that. They had group meetings and everything, you know, of people confessing their evil, gay desires. Then they also took away of course, masturbation and basically anything that wasn’t this, not a man and a woman at copulating, everything else is the devil, you know, but tell us about the harm of conversion therapy and what [00:13:00] fuckery that is.

[00:13:02] Marcia: Well, first of all, um, I have, uh, uh, I, and I don’t mean to sound like snobbish about this, but I do think that this is super important. Um, I have a psychology degree from my bachelor’s degree. And just on that alone, because I didn’t go into that field professionally with say a master’s degree or whatever, uh, to become a counselor.

[00:13:29] But I could readily understand just from the bachelor work that I did that, uh, counseling people about, um, you know, basic human emotions and activities is a very serious business. That’s why we license it. That’s why we licensed it because we put people through their paces and they have to study and they have to prepare and they have to take board [00:14:00] examinations, just like lawyers and doctors and architects and accountants.

[00:14:08] Um, and there’s a reason for that because it needs to be standardized and it needs to be carefully monitored when you start. Uh, trying to counsel people without proper training, you are asking for trouble. And that’s what a lot of these churches do. And they hide it under the guise of spiritual formation or, you know, spiritual preparation or whatever.

[00:14:37] It’s very dangerous, very, very dangerous. I would never want to take that kind of a risk with another human being, trying to counsel them and act professionally with them. If I was not properly trained and people do have post-traumatic stress disorder from conversion therapy, [00:15:00] this is, um, really you can’t overstate.

[00:15:05] Uh, the point of how dangerous it is to start dabbling. And I say death. And something that you are not prepared to do. And we know that conversion therapy doesn’t work because in studying human sexuality, we understand that sexual orientation is an indelible. You can’t make straight people gay and you can’t make gay people straight.

[00:15:34] So why the arrogance and presumption of straight people that, that, you know, trying to change? People’s a good thing. That’s the other part of this? There’s an arrogance that heterosexuality is superior. All this stuff works on an individual who’s in this conversion situation, basically telling them that they’re worthless.[00:16:00]

[00:16:01] Like the fellow that was, you know, ill prepared and being dishonest with himself in the documentary and came to the point where it was either just exit life or leave the life that he had and leave his children.

[00:16:19] And, uh, who wants that kind of responsibility. That’s, that’s one of the questions that I ask.

[00:16:28] De’Vannon: And he was also, he was also, sorry, not to cut you off. That guy was also like the spokesperson, the face of the hill exit and exit exited some movement. So that was another burden that he had, he had

[00:16:42] Marcia: to. Yeah. I mean, he, I can’t imagine too, just living such an incredible lie, you know, your whole, your whole life is.

[00:16:56] Yeah. Everything about what you do [00:17:00] and say and how you act. And all of it is a big lie. Why

[00:17:05] De’Vannon: do that? Yeah. And then he got, he went to Washington, DC on business. God got tipsy and went to a gay bar. And then of course he was spotted. And then somebody called like a reporter or some shit that was waiting on him when he came outside to take his picture.

[00:17:19] Cause he was, he rose to national fame. He was like the spokesperson for Exodus. And now he’s in a bar, you know, turning up while the wife and kids are,

[00:17:33] Marcia: it’s really sad, but you also, you know, if you’re going to give it, then you better be ready to get it. If, if you’re going to mess en masse with people’s lives like that, you’ve got to come.

[00:17:47] De’Vannon: You do. And they said in the documentary, like what you’re saying, they, weren’t not actually professionally trained to be counseling people on any of this.

[00:17:55] And so what they did was they hired people with psychological [00:18:00] psychology degrees, but it’s not like you can go to school and learn, you know, get a doctorate in conversion therapy. You can get like a psychology degree then act like you’re an expert fondant. And then multiple people will believe you. And so that’s what they did to add fire to.

[00:18:16] It was, Hey, this person has an acronym was behind their name. So just us religious fanatics over here, though, they were for religious addicts. And so they use that to deceive people even further. Now, these people were going on talk shows, you know, this was huge. And now all of these people are in this documentary saying, oops, Nevermind.

[00:18:38] Bye. Right. Right.

[00:18:40] Marcia: And the other thing to remember with respect to these psychologists who were willing to be a participant’s participants in this, uh, shit show. Okay. Thank you. That’s good. Um, and [00:19:00] there’s a giant manual called the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental health disorders. The DSM that’s what we call it in 1973, homosexuality was removed as a disorder, 1973 in the DSM three.

[00:19:21] It has Roman numerals after it by edition. We’re at DSM five. It hasn’t been put back in. So when psychology licensed psychologists are engaged in this kind of a practice, even though the DSM five does not list this as a disorder, I’ve got a real issue with that. I’ve got a real issue with that because the American psychiatric association spends a lot of time on those DSMs.

[00:19:54] De’Vannon: They do, um,

[00:19:56] Marcia: you know, experts from all over the country, [00:20:00] participate in creating that DSM each edition that comes out.

[00:20:05] De’Vannon: That that to me is like malpractice. If you, if somebody in the psychological field goes out of scope of what’s in the DSM, because even, even as I, and I’m don’t know if you’ve been really suing somebody for malpractice, if they do something outside of the DSM.

[00:20:18] But I think for a lot of it, you can, uh, cause when, even when I was taking my hypnotherapy training, there was stuff in there and the DSM that. You know that as a, as a, as a certified him, the therapist that I have to abide by, you know, I can’t just make up my own shit or say, well, the DSM didn’t know what it’s talking about either.

[00:20:38] So I’m just going to do it anyway. You know, work that way. Or as a massage therapist, I can’t be like, okay, massage, you know, rules, fuck you. I’m just going to do this, do this other shit over here. It doesn’t work that way.

[00:20:53] Marcia: That’s why, that’s why we regulate these professions. That’s why we do that. Exactly.

[00:20:59] [00:21:00] So it’s wrong on so many levels. Uh, and we have to put a stop to it.

[00:21:10] De’Vannon: And so some of the fuel that people use to take advantage of people who are mentally weak, you know, and. Are these clobber passages. But you know, when, when I think about it, Marsha, the only reason why I say, like I ever thought there was anything ever wrong with me in the first place was because of what somebody else told me.

[00:21:33] It’s not like I came to that conclusion by myself and all those people I watched in the video. So many people that I know who have questioned, who they are, hated themselves. Like I used to hate myself and try to become on gay, you know? And I’ve thought about it recently. I’m like, why the fuck did I ever think that way about myself?

[00:21:51] And it was not, it was because of what somebody else said. And I didn’t fact check them

[00:21:58] Marcia: out. Th [00:22:00] the embedded theology that was put on. Your elders and teachers and church leaders embedded you with this idea

[00:22:11] De’Vannon: and some of what they use are these copper passages. And so now we go to Genesis 19 and we talk about Sodom and Gomorrah and, um, And I’ll, I can read it since you’re going to be expounding.

[00:22:27] You’re going to be preaching. So I’ll be the reader for you in church today. Hallelujah. So, and amen. So Genesis 19 and in the blog, she has like a backdrop of Genesis 18 and everything, but, um, and then she can tell you about that, but I’m just going to read Genesis 19. So it says the two angels came to Sodom in the evening and lot was setting in the gate of Sodom.

[00:22:50] When lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed himself with his face to the earth and said, my Lord to turn aside, I pray you to your servants house and spend the night and wash your feet. [00:23:00] Then you may rise up. Erlin go on your way. They said, no, we will spend the night in the street, but he urged them strongly.

[00:23:06] They turned, assigned to him and entered his house. And he made them a feast and baked unleavened bread. And they ate the, before they lay down the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man surrounded the house. And they called to lot. Where are the men who came to you tonight?

[00:23:22] Bring them out to us that we may know them lot. Went out of the door to the man, shut the door after him and said, I beg you, my brothers do not act so wickedly behold, I have two daughters who you have, who ha who have not known, man, let me bring them out to you and do them as you please only do nothing to these men where they have come under the shelter of my roof, that they say it, stand back and they say, This fellow came to so Jaren and he would play the judge.

[00:23:48] Now we will deal worse with you than with them. And they press hard against the man lot and drew near to break the door, but the men put forth their hands and brought light into the house to them and shut the door. And they, the angels [00:24:00] struck with blindness, the men who were at the door of the house, both small and great so that they were themselves groping for the door, preach, preacher,

[00:24:18] Marcia: this is a bad example of ancient hospitality.

[00:24:25] We can start right there. I don’t want to say a couple of things though, about the Bible itself. A lot of times there are folks who will tell you, you know, that the Bible is, um, has no mistakes. No, no. It’s in errant. There are no errors. You must believe every single word that comes off the page. Literally this is a fundamentalist view, but it’s problematic.

[00:24:56] And first of all, it’s because the Bible didn’t just fall [00:25:00] out of the sky. One day, the Bible was written over centuries. Uh, the new Testament covering the life, uh, death and resurrection of Jesus was not, um, really fully complete until the second or third century after his death.

[00:25:26] And there was a lot of argument within the councils about what to include and what not to include. And the old Testament is far older and very complex because not a lot of it was written. Um, at the time things were going on. A lot of it was written after things had happened, like the new Testament, but it spans a longer period of time.

[00:25:55] And so we’ve got to be very careful about that. Um, [00:26:00] and it’s important to look within the biblical Canon sometimes at passages that happened right before, or right after a text that we’re studying. And that’s because as we talked about last time and the time before context is very important, when you get a story, it’s usually because something else has already happened that we need to know about and understand.

[00:26:27] And then that serves as a building block for stories that come after it. So, uh, Divan and read the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, which basically is strangers show up lot, takes them in that part of it. He does. Okay. The men find out and they want to, um, have them come, come out and rape them,[00:27:00]

[00:27:02] uh, because it was a time of war. Uh, there were always spies. It was a way to gain, uh, physical and emotional power over a rape victim. So this is not what you would call good hospitality. So if we look at the chapter before Abraham and Sarah are visited by angels, And here we get an excellent, a Superbowl example of ancient hospitality.

[00:27:38] Um, when you were traveling in those times, first of all, it was hot as could be. And there was no shade out and about away from the cities, it was a lot of desert. Um, and so people got very hot and very thirsty and tired trying to endure that heat. Um, when you [00:28:00] were outside of a city, you were said to be outside of the law.

[00:28:04] So that’s, uh, you can think of it like being an outlaw. Like you’re not protected by any municipality. Like there’s no local cops that are going to come and help you if abandoned way lays you and beats you and takes your stuff. So when you came upon a city, it was very important to reciprocate hospitality because everybody would experience some situation where they had to travel.

[00:28:31] So you want it to be kind to strangers and take them in and, you know, give them some clean water to wash their feet and have a big drink and something to eat and a place to rest. This was all super, super important in that culture. So these three men come up to Abraham. He doesn’t know that they’re angels.

[00:28:53] Those were where the expression comes, where you’re helping angels unaware. Okay. [00:29:00] So they come up and he says, please let me be your servant. He’s very, self-effacing he, you know, he says, let me give you a little water for your feet and rest under a tree in the shade. And we’ll bring you a morsel of bread and you may refresh yourselves and stay with us over the night and then move on your journey.

[00:29:21] All very well done. And then on top of that, he has a calf killed, which is a big deal. They didn’t need a lot of meat. Normally it was mostly the proceeds from the animals and the milk, and she’s in grain breads and whatnot. So they kill the fatted calf. They put out a spread, they use choice flour. Um, uh, they sat under the tree while they ate and Abraham did not eat with them because he, you know, I think so that they could have more to eat.

[00:29:52] He didn’t share this meal, even though it was a meal of extravagance. That’s really. Amazing [00:30:00]

[00:30:00] De’Vannon: what lottery Abraham. He said Abraham,

[00:30:03] Marcia: uh, Abraham in the story with the angels lot is the story with Gomorrah, Sodom and Gomorrah.

[00:30:13] De’Vannon: Did I, did I mess that up?

[00:30:17] Marcia: Okay. No, it’s Abraham and Sarah who post the angels and they don’t know their angels until later.

[00:30:25] And then they say, okay, now we’re going to go to Sodom and Gomorrah and see what happens. All right. And we know what happens. It’s not good. Um, so this is not a story that condemns same sex interactions. It sounds like it is, but it isn’t. And there may have been some tension with lot. Like he was not originally from there.

[00:30:55] So he was not, you know, a citizen there and it looked like maybe [00:31:00] he was showing them up by taking them in and you know, that kind of stuff. And that may have wrinkled, uh, the, the citizens of Saddam.

[00:31:10] De’Vannon: Do you think that they were all necessarily men? Because I know a lot in the old writings that they don’t include women.

[00:31:19] It’s not that they weren’t there, but they thought so little of women, you know, in those traditions know that they don’t, they’ll say like, you know, all the men gathered, but it doesn’t mean that there weren’t women too. So do you think that they were women in the streets? I don’t think so.

[00:31:35] Marcia: Okay. Uh, business was conducted at the gate, you know, lots near the gate, whatnot.

[00:31:41] Uh, women did not participate in that. Um, this was a show of force. This was about asserting, uh, physical and military dominance potentially. Okay. So, no, I don’t think that women were involved in this one. Um, [00:32:00] so to recap, um, let’s compare the hospitality that goes on between the two stories. Okay. So lot w rises to meet the strangers in Sodom, but Abraham ran to them.

[00:32:20] So a lot shows less enthusiasm. He, uh, only served unleavened bread, whereas Abraham and Sarah served cakes of choice, flour and freshly prepared before. Uh, lot eight with the angels, but Abraham stood off to the side, uh, presumptively, so the guests would have more to eat. Okay. So just even at the beginning of this, the story is very different and that is important.

[00:32:50] Um, let’s see. So I mentioned the mob [00:33:00] had been angry with lot who like shows them up in terms of his hospitality by taking in the strangers. Uh, he’s a resident alien. He’s not even from there and he’s, you know, maybe, um, you know, trying to show them up and they don’t like that. Um, and then, you know, uh, it was for men, for fathers to do with their daughters.

[00:33:26] What they please it’s just really that simple. So to calm them down, he offers his Virgin daughters, um, which we have a problem with. Um, I would like to think that, uh, everybody would have had a problem with this, but not necessarily as we’ll see in the judge’s story in just a minute. Um, so, uh, this threatened male to male rape, uh, is somewhat thwarted because one of the angels [00:34:00] intervenes as lots, trying to reason with them and the, the men are struck blind and lot is jerked back into the house.

[00:34:08] They grab him and pull him right back in because he was about probably to get quite the beating. Um, This is this. And it’s very differently than the story of the angels that are with Abraham and Sarah. Very, very different. But what happens is, is we talked about this before. This is, uh, a way to read into the text because you don’t like homosexuality.

[00:34:36] This is about having a pretext or an agenda about, uh, you know, having proof. We call this proof texting, where you try to twist a passage around to prove your point. And that’s how this has been used. This is about rape. It really doesn’t matter what the genders of the participants are. [00:35:00] This is about, uh, hurting somebody, uh, sexually molesting them, um, possibly, you know, um, killing them in the process.

[00:35:12] That’s what the story is about. So are we good on that?

[00:35:22] De’Vannon: Okay. Now

[00:35:25] Marcia: go ahead. And then, uh, if we look at the story, uh, at the city of Gibeah, we have also something very similar and in that instance, uh, not only was raped, threatened. But rape occurred.

[00:35:42] De’Vannon: Now we’re getting over into the judges

[00:35:44] Marcia: and we’re moving over into judges.

[00:35:45] Do you want to read that one for us? Yep.

[00:35:47] De’Vannon: So judges 22, as they were making their hearts and Mary, the whole, the men of the city based the fellows beset the house around about beating on the door. And they said to the old man, the master of the house and bringing out the man who came into [00:36:00] your house, that we may know him and the man, the master of the house, went out to them and said to them, no, my brother and do not act so wickedly seeing that this man has come into my house, do not do this vile thing.

[00:36:12] They hold here and my Virgin daughter and his concubine let them. Bring them out now, ravish them and do with them would, seems good to you. But against this man, do not do such sell a vial thing that the men would not listen to him. So the man sees his concubine and put her out to them and they knew her and abused her all night until the morning.

[00:36:35] And as the Dawn began, began to break, they let her go. And as morning appear, the woman came and fell down at the door of the man’s house where her master was till it was light.

[00:36:50] Marcia: Right. And then later she’s killed.

[00:36:55] De’Vannon: Yeah. I don’t worry. I can’t remember. She died from the rape or whatever, but I know she didn’t. [00:37:00] So she,

[00:37:00] Marcia: she ends up dying and her body has cut up. Yeah, so this is terrible. This is a terrible, terrible passage. And the story of Gibeah is not better because the rape ended up being heterosexual rape.

[00:37:19] The story is just as bad as Sodom and Gomorrah, because it is about rape and a lack of ancient hospitality. And that, that cannot be underscored enough. And you get an example here too, of why it’s important to do canonical comparisons, looking at a text in one section and looking at a text and another section that has similar fetch patterns, which is what we just did.

[00:37:53] Um, You know, conservative scholars like to argue that, uh, [00:38:00] Sodom and Gomorrah is a cautionary tale about, uh, underscoring homosexuality as a sin. Well, first of all, they didn’t even know what that word was that. Okay. That’s, uh, an inaccurate, um, anachronistic use of the word, homosexuality plugging it in there, uh, using 19th, 20th and 21st understandings of what homosexuality is into a text that was written thousands of years ago.

[00:38:33] Um, sexual orientation was not really understood in the way that we understand it now. So to try to cram that, meaning that interpretation into such an old text, About ancient behaviors that are even older, uh, is really illogical. It doesn’t make sense to even try to do it. [00:39:00] Um,

[00:39:07] so,

[00:39:12] you know, if, if the story is not about rape in Gibeah with the woman, with the concubine, then we would argue that heterosexuality is also a sin. And I really don’t think conservatives want to go there, but we, you know, we have to use the sense that God gave us to re recognize what a leap in logic it is.

[00:39:33] This is just, uh, a cheap, uh, attempt to try to apply this ancient text to a very different time when there are loving, committed relationships, uh, Linda and I will be together 40 years next year.

[00:39:52] Um, devoted to one another. We have built a life together in a home and a family, and we take care of each other’s families. [00:40:00] And, um, you know, we, we share a niece and nephew that we lavished with attention. So, uh, it it’s apples and oranges. It’s really, you know, apples and I dunno, eggplants it’s really different, really different.

[00:40:18] Um, and of course, if in Gibeah all the men were homosexual, why would they rape a woman?

[00:40:31] This is about power. Um, and, uh, you know, uh, conservatives, don’t like to hear this, but you can’t change your sexual orientation. That doesn’t mean there weren’t gay people back then. They just didn’t know what to call it. They didn’t, you know, and their relationships, um, as far as we know are not documented and we, you know, we don’t know what was [00:41:00] going on back then.

[00:41:03] That’s

[00:41:05] De’Vannon: my thinking in all of this. And thank you so much for expounding on the word today, preacher. And, uh, my thoughts in all of this is that, you know, in my ministry, in my outreach for it is not to conservative people. I am not called to conservative people. Um, people who are arrogant enough to go through the Bible to try to find out what’s wrong with other people can go and fuck themselves in my opinion, uh, because it is there for us to examine ourselves, not other people.

[00:41:36] And so, um, Now that doesn’t mean that you just go hang around, you know, every Tom, Dick and Harry, but it’s one thing to not hang around people out of caution. Hey, that person look shady, or maybe they’re a murderer or whatever the fuck the case may be. Or maybe you just don’t have a lot in common with them as one thing, you know, in your natural common sense.

[00:41:58] Cause you’re not going to be friends with [00:42:00] everybody, but it’s one thing to just not hang out with people because you don’t have a lot in common as opposed to, if you think that there’s something wrong with them, according to the Bible. And so, because that to me has this root and arrogance and hypocrisy.

[00:42:13] And so I have nothing to say to conservative people other than fuck you. And, um, my message is to the people who have been hurt by the church, you know, kicked out by the church. And that’s why I like to do shows like this because, um, I’m trying to talk to people and trying to reach people. Who maybe can be considering suicide, who may be made may feel like they’ve lost their community because they’ve been kicked out of their church.

[00:42:41] Like I was, who may be confused about who they think they are. Like I once was you may hate themselves. Um, like I once did. And, um, you know, that’s who I’m trying to talk to and how you’re trying to explain to [00:43:00] people how to go through the Bible and everything like that. You know, that’s a, cause a core, core thing to my message is learn how to read it for yourself.

[00:43:12] You know, you don’t need a preacher. Excuse me. They’re great to have, you know, but church, community, all of that as an accessory to your relationship with God, Not the, not, not the end all be all, not what you should hang your relationship off of is what some human told you, because any human being can be wrong.

[00:43:33] And the arrogance of, of conservatives people is that they don’t think that they can be wrong. They think that the way they think about homosexuality or what they think about anything in the Bible, they feel like it’s permanent. And if they dare change and they’re somehow compromised their beliefs, but what they forgotten is the fact that they are not God.

[00:43:53] And then they also did not write this book. And so, and so they want to be an expert about it and [00:44:00] claim that they absolutely know a hundred percent what it says, and that’s not possible because you know, I’m an author, you know, You know, can’t nobody say that they’re an expert on what’s in it, but me, you know, you can have your take on it and what you think, but I wrote it and not you.

[00:44:17] And so in the, in the Bible is composed of many authors and yeah, there from a long time ago. And so I don’t really feel like any of us can be an expert on somebody else’s literary work. You know, we can say what we think we feel, but we can’t be so absolute, you know, in our thinking to act like that.

[00:44:37] There’s no way that we could come up with something wrong. I agree with what you said. I don’t think that’s the Bible. It has to be completely a hundred percent accurate from cover to cover. It does not even say that it is accurate from cover to cover in there. It does say like in revelation, at the add to, or take away from, but I really have always felt like that that’s was specific to that vision [00:45:00] that John had in and God knows conservative people and take away all the damn time.

[00:45:06] Whatever’s convenient for them, you know? And so, and so, and so the message is consistent. Go to God for yourself, take out the middleman, you know, middlemen, which is pretty much what, you know, preachers who try to put themselves in the place of God, not the ones who are actually loving you and trying to help to coach you.

[00:45:28] But the ones who are trying to dominate your thinking and tell you what to think about everything, that’s a different story. And sometimes it can be hard to tell the two apart, so you can pray to God for yourself. You don’t need to go through a father or a preacher or anything like that. You can ask Jesus for forgiveness directly.

[00:45:46] You don’t need to go to a, to a human for that. And so, you know, hearing these scriptures and going to go in through it, hopefully people will get the boldness to feel like they can, you know, go through with themselves and just [00:46:00] written just in, in, in anything else, just write, just think about why do you feel bad?

[00:46:05] Where did it come from? Who told you, you know, why do you feel bad in the first place? You know, no angel told you that the Lord didn’t tell you that people told you that in, you think about where it comes from in this. And so you pass it back to you without one. Well,

[00:46:25] Marcia: um, you’ve raised a really important message here and that is, and people can’t see me, but I’m pointing up.

[00:46:34] And, um, I don’t know if I said this in a previous episode, but it bears repeating. Um, we spend too much time now I’m pointing to the side, allowing others to dictate what our relationship is. Our relationship is with our creator, other, uh, you know, people outside of ourselves, our souls telling us what’s.

[00:46:57] What about our relationship with [00:47:00] our creator? Who’s in whose image we are made versus not letting anything come between that relationship. Now I’m pointing up. It should be a vertical one waste to waste. A vertical two way street in, in determining what our relationship is with our creator. And don’t be so concerned about whether what others are saying.

[00:47:30] Um, and I think that that is, and if we all did that and just worried, you know, more about our own business and our own behavior, we would all be so much better off. Um, and I think, uh, it’s important for us as LGBT people to learn this lesson and stop letting others tell us and presume that the way we are made is less than [00:48:00] stop letting people, you know, letting people tell us that we are less.

[00:48:04] But we have to just say, no, we’re not going to do that. And I will also say this, most people don’t like to change. And if you were raised with an embedded theology, that is anti-gay anti LGBT, for the most part, you will not change unless you have some sort of confrontation that hits you very personally.

[00:48:35] Okay. So if you encounter somebody who’s really anti-gay, it’s probably because nobody close to them has come out yet.

[00:48:49] Uh, my dad had a lot of trouble when I came out. And my, my son says that had he not had the confrontation of either accepting [00:49:00] me or losing me, he probably would still be like he was,

[00:49:07] but once he was confronted with the idea that all this LGBT stuff applied to his one and only daughter, then he had to take a look at the paradigm he was raised with. And he had to do some deconstructing and think about what this actually means. So, um, when you encounter somebody who’s really anti LGBT, here’s what I recommend.

[00:49:40] If it’s just going to turn into a shouting match, don’t bother. Uh, you’re not going to change their minds, at least not in that conversation. Um, and don’t put yourself through it. It’s not important. Don’t let that person dictate what, you know, your relationship is with your creator. Uh, [00:50:00] and, um, recognize that, you know, they’ve been taught a certain way and it’s very hard to move off of it unless they absolutely have to.

[00:50:10] And if they’ve been raised in a tradition that instills in them, some arrogance for being heterosexual, uh, they’re surely not going to change because of a conversation with you or anybody else. It’s, it’s really the, um, when their paradigm is challenged because they potentially are going to lose somebody.

[00:50:30] They love. That’s typically how, uh, hearts and thoughts are changed and moved.

[00:50:38] De’Vannon: And yet everybody, and that’s why. I don’t argue with conservative people. I’m not even talk to them. You know, I’m trying to talk to, you know, the people out there who are wondering, and questioning and hurting themselves on open to a different point of view.

[00:50:50] I’m not trying to force somebody’s mind open. So the only way you can even come to me is if you’re, you know, if you, if you were humble enough to be, if you to, you know, that life journey, what can I [00:51:00] discover? What can I learn? I already have it figured out and let me go and try to force other people into what I believe to be true.

[00:51:07] And people do your research because remember conservative people and people in general. A lot of times tend to like the disk control or the people, because remember these same conservative people, once we’re like all anti miscegenation, which means they didn’t even want interracial couples mixing, you know, they were like black and white people, white, Asian people.

[00:51:25] We don’t want, y’all mixing everything to just be the same race. Then the, now they’re like gay people. Don’t, y’all, don’t do this woman. Don’t do this with your body that we detect the trend here. And so then if they want to then go to the Bible and try to justify slavery, anti miscegenation, strictly speaking, you know, if you want to get into not mixing.

[00:51:45] Okay. Yeah, the Lord did heal his people not to do that, you know, but you know, we are not Israelites and you know, I’m not going to go down that path, but you know, it’s one of those things that, you know, is accepted now. So now you can be [00:52:00] mixed race, even though conservative people once were so against that, but there’s a lot of them wanted interracial relationships.

[00:52:06] So it was convenient for them to stop pursuing that. Not that people didn’t have to fight for the right to do that, you know, also back in the day. Uh, so we just moved forward, you know, we, we in, and so let’s go ahead and, um, let’s talk about Mr. Um, you know, what’s going on over with Noah and then yeah. And then that’ll be it for today.

[00:52:29] Marcia: This is a strange story. It’s from Genesis nine and I’m just going to paraphrase it. So, uh, no. It’s after the flood. And, uh, Noah has been blessed with, by God with these vineyards and he makes some wine and he gets drunk. Okay. So first mistake, he gets real drunk and passes out in his tent and he’s naked.

[00:52:57] Um, uh, and [00:53:00] seeing someone’s naked and nakedness can be interpreted as one of two things, you know, just really seeing somebody naked or, um, having sex with them. It’s long been, uh, puzzled over this about, you know, did ham, the, one of the three sons see no one naked lay in there, drunk and passed out. Or did he rape his father to, you know, to, um, impose power over him and take, uh, take over his position.

[00:53:39] Take over his land and all of that, we don’t know, uh, scholars go back and forth. Um, it’s a, it’s a confusing passage, but because the potential for the ham raping his father, again, there’s this conflation of male to male [00:54:00] sex with rape. Uh, and, um, and then saying that, you know, rape is bad, but, and saying that male to male sex is bad or that they’re the same.

[00:54:14] The only male to male sex that can be had is rape. It’s really unclear. And then the other two sons, um, uh, ham goes in the tent, sees his father’s nakedness. His brothers are standing at the outside of the tent and says, and he says to them, I just saw our father’s nakedness. And so the other two boy. Take a garment and hold corners of it and walk in the tent backwards, looking away from their father.

[00:54:46] So they don’t see as nakedness and cover him up.

[00:54:52] And then Noah wakes up later and realize either that ham has seen him naked or had sex with him, [00:55:00] which I think he would probably know. Uh, and, and he curses Hamm’s youngest son Canaan.

[00:55:12] So it is a really strange passage. It’s very, um, far removed from using it directly to condemn same sex activity. Um, So I’m not going to spend a lot of time on it because I think it’s really not worth it. It, it should not, in my opinion, be included in the clever past, just because we don’t even know what happened.

[00:55:41] De’Vannon: That’s the, um, the sneaky thing about yes. Hate is that it, it can alert in seemingly legitimate places. Now somebody already has a predisposition against [00:56:00] homosexuality. They can read through this ambiguous as the scripture and come out of it with a million reasons why you shouldn’t. Be gay, you know, but this is why we cannot let somebody else’s understanding prevail over our own that we have to stop looking at preachers.

[00:56:23] You know, like they are the absolute authority on things, rather than just giving an opinion, you know, they are not the voice of God. They’re just not, you know, people who they made, they have inspired moments, you know, I’ll give them that. But to say that everything that flies out of their mouth is coming straight from God, through them, to you as no, no, no, no, no.

[00:56:48] Marcia: Hmm. Well, it’s very, it’s very dangerous. It’s very, very dangerous, uh, to do that now and in a congregational structure where there’s maybe a loose [00:57:00] affiliation, um, with the governing church, but for the most part, the chief pastor of a congregation. Um, has a lot of power, a lot of power. And we have seen this, um, you know, evidence of these, uh, pastors of these giant mega churches.

[00:57:22] And they just implode because there’s so much power and they can’t handle it because none of us, you know, absolute power corrupts, corrupts. Absolutely. And none of us can handle that when we get so big for our bridges, you know, that we don’t have to answer to anybody anymore. Seemingly and it’s very dangerous to fall prey to that kind of pastoral leadership.

[00:57:52] De’Vannon: Yeah. I’ve fallen prey to that before and either in a Vic thing about a lot of like megachurches [00:58:00] that I’m not overly fond of is the. Like, like the people at the top don’t really know a lot of what’s happening sometimes down in the, you know, down to the most finite inner workings, but, you know, you’re ultimately responsible for everything that’s happening on it.

[00:58:18] You’re in, you have to put a lot of, um, trust in a whole lot of different people. That’s right. Have you got souls at stake? You know, it’s not like a regular corporation where the worst thing that can happen, you know, somebody might get,

[00:58:35] Marcia: and in the Catholic church too, over the sex abuse scandal, um, you know, so it’s, uh, I mean, I didn’t mean to say that only congregational structure churches have problems because we certainly have seen, uh, you know, the sex abuse scandal just explode with respect to Roman Catholicism.

[00:58:54] Uh, but any time, uh, people are spiritual leaders. [00:59:00] The danger of abusing, uh, followers or abusing power, uh, can become very, very strong, very it’s. Um, it’s like, um, an aphrodisiac almost, uh, uh, you know, flowing up both sides. Uh, maybe that’s not the right word, but it’s, um, it’s addictive and it’s potentially dangerous.

[00:59:31] Um, I’m very glad that I am in a structure where I have a Bishop that I answer to. And, you know, we have to be sure that the Bishop knows what we’re up to, what’s going on. Um, it’s very important and that helps keep some of that in check

[00:59:49] De’Vannon: that who was in a position to teach. The Bishop, if they get out of hand, you

[00:59:56] Marcia: know, we have a presiding Bishop who has also has a big [01:00:00] staff.

[01:00:03] So no, I think that we’ve got some good checks and balances in place, and we have governing boards in our local parishes. We call it congregation of parish. Um, we have what is called the vestry, which is the governing body of the church. And the priest is typically not the signatory on the bank account.

[01:00:28] Um, that’s up to the, the wardens, the ones who run the vest rate, uh, they’re in charge of, uh, lots of different things. So that, that there are checks and balances that are built into our system. And we are governed much like the federal government. We have a house of bishops and a house of deputies, which are the lay people.

[01:00:51] Um, who sir, you know, provide the two chambers of the church for does this, your decision-making. And we get together every three years and [01:01:00] create new cannons and do all sorts of

[01:01:03] De’Vannon: things. So that’s cool. So that sounds like, kind of like community run rather than one person at the top making all the decisions.

[01:01:12] Yeah. I’ve found that at the, uh, university Presbyterian tourist that I have. You know, attended here. Um, you know, it was like that they have what’s called a session, which is like a group of people making decisions together, make, bring up budgetary things to the whole congregation. And it’s not like that in every church churches that I’ve been in with, like you just find out what’s the decision has been made by somebody on a fucking day and you’re expected to go with it.

[01:01:36] There is no, what do the people bullshit? They’re not interested in that.

[01:01:40] Marcia: I think anytime you can, you know, attend a church or a denomination where there the government’s is very straightforward and transparent, it’s going to be a lot better for everybody. And we have to do training. We have to, uh, periodically do training about, you know, safeguarding our children and [01:02:00] safeguarding, uh, the faithful, you know, uh, this is all very, very important and those structures are not necessarily in place.

[01:02:08] If the tradition doesn’t have a structure. So those are things to look for also.

[01:02:14] De’Vannon: And one thing I’ll say this, and I’ll let you out of the last word. Um, the one thing that I’ve, that I’ve, that I always keep an eye out for, with the churches is if they’re transparent about the finances, uh, what’s being raised, how much is being raised, who’s being paid.

[01:02:29] What? And if they’re not, if they’re not willing to do that, then, you know, go run the other way because that’s, they need to be transparent about every fucking thing. There’s nothing. Thank you. This should be being done in the corner and look, LGBTQ community, my alphabet mafia, baby. Honey, don’t go to no church that that is not a pro LGBTQ a and pro all of the values that you stand for.

[01:02:55] Don’t give them your money. They don’t deserve our money. Do not support organizations [01:03:00] like Chick-Filet and stuff like that that are donating to people who would legislate against us fly. You can go get a burger from somewhere else already and make it yourself, you know, you know how to cook. And so, um, so now let’s take the gay dollar from these people.

[01:03:15] They don’t deserve to have any of our support and do not go to churches that are against you because you’re only hurting yourself. Now, finally,

[01:03:27] Marcia: yeah. Let me, let me say a couple of things and then I’ll, um, um, we’ll close. Um,

[01:03:39] The Episcopal church is a really safe place for LGBT people. We are very serious about inclusion. We have passed specific resolutions at our general convention that I mentioned that happens every three years. And this is now several years ago, um, that, uh, we [01:04:00] ordain LGBT people. We, we have specific resolutions about that.

[01:04:04] We have a singular one for trans people. Um, if you feel like you’re ready to go back to church, I think it’s a great place for you to start the PC USA Presbyterian church USA. Uh, look for those letters. Uh, they’re good to the, um, ELC, a evangelical Lutheran church of America is wonderful. Uh, we’re in partnership with the ELC Lutherans, uh, that, that means that I could serve an ELC church and a Lutheran pastor could serve an Episcopal church.

[01:04:43] Um, so those are two places for you to, to check. And what you can do is go to the web website and see what is on their website with respect to inclusion. If they say they’re, you know, open and [01:05:00] affirming and you don’t see anything on there other than just that expression. Then, you know, maybe you need to move on to another one, but the website is a safe way for you to check out what’s going on at a particular congregation to figure out if it would be a good fit for you.

[01:05:19] Um, I’m an Episcopalian. I, Linda and I chose it together. I came from the American Baptist tradition and she came from Roman, Roman Catholicism, and it has been the perfect blend for us and we love it. And I can’t imagine going anywhere else. Um, my Bishop is a lesbian.

[01:05:41] We have several LGBT bishops out there in the Episcopal church. So just keep that in mind and don’t be afraid to do some homework before you ever stepped foot in any church and make sure that you feel like they are going to be open and affirming and [01:06:00] welcoming with you. Okay. So, um, I’m going to read a part of Psalm 1 39 for everybody.

[01:06:14] And I’m going to read it from the St. Helen assaulter. Now I’m an associate of the order of St. Helena. It’s a group of Episcopal nuns, and they’ve written a, uh, uh, the Psalms in gender inclusive language. Interesting. And I highly highly recommend this for our peeps in the LGBTQ community. It’s really wonderful.

[01:06:45] They spent years working on this and praying it in their daily cycle of Psalms. And 1 39 I think is a song that we all need to know as [01:07:00] LGBT people. Okay. Are you

[01:07:03] De’Vannon: ready?

[01:07:06] Marcia: Oh, God, you have searched me out and known me, you know, my sitting down and my rising up, you discern my thoughts from afar. You trace your, my journeys and my resting places and are acquainted with all my ways.

[01:07:25] Indeed. There is not a word on my lips, but you all God know it all together. You press upon me from behind and before and you lay your hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me. It is so high that I cannot attain to it. Where can I go from your spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I climb up to heaven, you are there.

[01:07:53] If I make the grave, my bed, you are there. Also, if I take the wings [01:08:00] of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the city, Even there, your hand will lead me in your right hand. Hold me fast. If I say surely the darkness will cover me and the light around me turn tonight. Darkness is not dark to you.

[01:08:19] The night is as bright as the day. Darkness and light to you are both alike for you. Yourself covered my inmost parts. You’d knit me together in my mother’s womb. I will thank you because I am marvelously made your works are wonderful. And I know it well, my body was not hidden from you while I was being made in secret and woven in the depths of the earth.

[01:08:51] Your eyes be held my limbs yet unfinished in the womb. All of them were written in your book. They were fashioned day [01:09:00] by day. When as yet there was none of them. How deep I find your thoughts. Oh God, how great is the sum of them? If I were to count them, they would be more in number than the sand to count them.

[01:09:16] All my lifespan would need to be like yours.

[01:09:23] Search me out. Oh God. And know my heart. Try me and know my restless thoughts look well, whether there be any wickedness in me and lead me in a way that has everlasting.

[01:09:43] De’Vannon: Beautiful. Thank you so much. You’re welcome.

[01:09:48] So. These three sessions have been such a blessing for me, um, to be able to share what I’ve [01:10:00] written about these passages that are used to destroy us. And I just want to thank you for the opportunity to, uh, make them more available and to hopefully be a help in a bomb to others.

[01:10:16] De’Vannon: Thank you so much for, um, coming on the show to share it and for being transparent with your own experiences in life and not just taking your success and strength and hope and running off with it, but, you know, writing it down for people and speaking it. So thank you.

[01:10:37] Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the sex drugs and Jesus’ podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at sex, drugs, and jesus.com or wherever you listen to your pocket. Feel free to reach out to me [01:11:00] directly at DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.

[01:11:05] My name is De’Vannon and it’s been wonderful being your host today and just remember that everything is going to be all right.

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